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Thread: Ae you soured on bevel up?

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Hachet View Post
    I am really thinking that a Bevel Up jack plane may well be my next purchase, probably from LV because of the PMV11. If not, LN. I work a lot of hard Maple and quarter sawn white oak, so being able to pull the blade out, hone it quickly, and get back to work would be the largest contributing factor.
    If there's any difference in how long it takes to get a chipbreaker apart and back together, it's cancelled out by the extra lapping on the back of a bevel up plane iron (to remove the wear bevel that would be on the bevel of a BD plane) and the more nitpicky maintenance of camber.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Hi Kees

    If you are comparing a 45 degree BD to a "steeply bedded" BD plane, then I would agree. But not if you were comparing to a BU plane. The low centre of effort of the BU plane makes a significant difference in reducing the "lightness to push".

    I am not sure where you get your information about BU vs BD blade wear? A 45 degree bed BD plane consistently demonstrated significantly more wear than a 12 degree BU bed plane in my recent shooting plane comparison.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    The Stanley types have the same "centre of effort" as the BU planes.

    And in your test the significant part was that a higher cutting angle (in that case 45 degrees) resulted in more wear then the low cutting angle (37 degrees). That's independent of BU or BD.

    It's quite logic in fact. When you raise the angle, you need to push harder. When you use for example a 55 degree plane to reduce tearout, all that extra force is exerted at the weakest point of the blade: the edge. In a 45 degree plane with the chipbreaker close enough to the edge to get the same anti tearout effect, you are still planing at 45 degreed and only higher up at the blade the extra force is used. higher up on the plane with enough steel to deal with this extra force.

    Of course we should do an extensive test of this theory. But I don't really want to do that test. And you probably neither. There are the tests from the Japanese professors of course, meassuring the forces and wear and concluded that the chipbreaker didn't increase wear, instead it reduces wear.

    BTW, I am not soured on bevel ups at all!

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Hi Kees

    If you are comparing a 45 degree BD to a "steeply bedded" BD plane, then I would agree. But not if you were comparing to a BU plane. The low centre of effort of the BU plane makes a significant difference in reducing the "lightness to push".

    I am not sure where you get your information about BU vs BD blade wear? A 45 degree bed BD plane consistently demonstrated significantly more wear than a 12 degree BU bed plane in my recent shooting plane comparison.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Derek. To your second point. IIRC, you tested longevity comparing the higher angled LN 51 w/CB against a lower angled BU LV shooter right? Wasn't your conclusion/hypothesis that the decreased amount of effort/force needed when using the lower angle to shoot endgrain contributed to better edge retention?

    This isn't really applicable to what Kees is saying. He's speaking of planing long grain with a 45-50 degree blade with CB vs 55 degree or higher w/o CB. If in fact it is true that the less effort, lower angle of attack=longer edge longevity than he is correct that the BD plane with CB would last longer than the BU at a high angle. I'm not saying that is necessarily true, perhaps even the high blade bevel angle would offset things and bring the BU back to top for retention, but it would need to be tested. I don't know that answer, but I'm not sure you can extend your shooting plane test to this situation,it seems like an over extension of the results.

    (EDIT: Kees beat me to it...I'm also not at all soured on BU planes...in fact they are growing on me, but I do love me some BD with chipbreaker action)
    Last edited by Chris Griggs; 12-03-2013 at 10:14 AM.
    Woodworking is terrific for keeping in shape, but it's also a deadly serious killing system...

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Hi Kees

    If you are comparing a 45 degree BD to a "steeply bedded" BD plane, then I would agree. But not if you were comparing to a BU plane. The low centre of effort of the BU plane makes a significant difference in reducing the "lightness to push".

    I am not sure where you get your information about BU vs BD blade wear? A 45 degree bed BD plane consistently demonstrated significantly more wear than a 12 degree BU bed plane in my recent shooting plane comparison.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    I'd hate to use a shooting durability test across endgrain to make decisions about how an iron will wear in the much more common jacking, jointing and smoothing. The "low centre of gravity" makes the BU planes feel flat footed and awkward, especially for tasks like jointing an edge.

    I'd say the market decided the same, as the stanley 62 was available for almost 40 years, but never gained popularity when purchases were driven by professionals and not us white collar amateurs.

  5. #65
    I bought the Lie-Nielsen bevel up jack plane after trying it out as a shooting plane with the "hot dog" attachment. I tried it against a #9 with the hot dog attachement and the #51 shooting plane, and I was impressed with how well it performed in shooting against those two planes, which are essentially used as dedicated shooting planes. So for me, the bevel up jack planes make great shooters (with the hot dog attachment) and then the versatility of different angle blades and a toothed blade make it a very useful plane.

    So I haven't soured on bevel up planes, but I do tend to use wooden planes the most, as I prefer the feel of them.

    Jonas

  6. #66
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    The Stanley types have the same "centre of effort" as the BU planes.
    Kees, that is nonsense unless you can explain how a plane with a 45 degree bed can be the same as a plane with a 12 degree bed.

    And in your test the significant part was that a higher cutting angle (in that case 45 degrees) resulted in more wear then the low cutting angle (37 degrees). That's independent of BU or BD
    .

    Kees, my response was to you stating, "
    The 45 degree plane has less wear on the edge". One of the results of the review was that a 25 degree A2 blade in a BU plane held an edge significantly longer than a 25 degree A2 blade in a BD plane. There is little to question about the facts there.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  7. #67
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    Hi Chris

    I'll try and answer you tomorrow (my time). It's late here - I'm off to bed.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Kees, that is nonsense unless you can explain how a plane with a 45 degree bed can be the same as a plane with a 12 degree bed.

    .

    Kees, my response was to you stating, "[/COLOR]The 45 degree plane has less wear on the edge". One of the results of the review was that a 25 degree A2 blade in a BU plane held an edge significantly longer than a 25 degree A2 blade in a BD plane. There is little to question about the facts there.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Nobody would put a 25 degree bevel on a bevel down plane. I wonder how the test would turn out if you put a 32 degree final bevel on the A2 iron. The cutting angle of the BD plane is fixed, so there is no reason to generate great big clearance amounts, especially if it's at the expense of reason.

    Steve Elliot showed quite a while ago that 32 or 33 degrees is the sweet spot for A2 steel (and it probably is for every steel) - the lowest angle at which planing long grain causes failure due to wear instead of deformation.

    I personally have never noticed any deficiency in using a LN 7 with an A2 iron to shoot, but I follow steve's guidelines, or more precisely, I follow the method that charlesworth prescribes with that plane. The iron in the plane holds up better than my LA jack did at 25 degrees (for obvious reasons) and I'd have to say I prefer the LN 7 as a shooter, even though I limit shooting to where it actually needs to be done (small work and miters, and only when the small work is not part of a larger panel - because in that case, it can be planed without shooting after assembly).

    At any rate, there shouldn't be any great reason to need to remove mass amounts of metal and use an extremely low angle to shoot - if there is, the problem is with the sawyer and not the shooter.

    I've had private discussions with several people about edge retention (regarding the 32 degree issue, and 25 on chisels - for chisels, mainly the point that the paring chisel that holds its edge well over a variety of soft and medium woods at 20 degrees is a fallacy, and that most steels will perform similarly at similar total angles, though some will grind and sharpen less conveniently. 25 degrees is about the lowest practical angle for any chisel that will see a variety of woods). A twitch over 30 degrees of total angle is better for *any* iron, and edge holding in the 25 degree arena seems to me to be more dependent on hardness than alloy.

    20 degrees on a chisel is nearly the practical bevel for a razor, and 25 degrees on a plane has the same effect - premature sharpening that, as long as people seem to take to sharpen, more than negates time involved to solve problems that are created by poor sawing.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Hi Chris

    I'll try and answer you tomorrow (my time). It's late here - I'm off to bed.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Cool. Will look forward to your thoughts.

    Darn, I wish I had thought to throw a 1 3/4 PMV11 blade in for my miller falls 8, when I ordered my SBUS yesterday. Equal steel, equal blade width, comparably sized BU vs BD planes. Would have made for a good test.
    Woodworking is terrific for keeping in shape, but it's also a deadly serious killing system...

  10. #70
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    Nobody would put a 25 degree bevel on a bevel down plane. I wonder how the test would turn out if you put a 32 degree final bevel on the A2 iron. The cutting angle of the BD plane is fixed, so there is no reason to generate great big clearance amounts, especially if it's at the expense of reason.

    Hi David

    My tests did include both 25- and 30 degree bevel angles. The 25 degree A2 blade in BU mode outlasted a 30 degree A2 blade in BD mode. It's all here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...tingPlane.html

    Now I will go to bed!

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  11. #71
    Hope you had a good sleep Derek!

    In the end, bevel up or down, it's just a wedge plowing through the wood and a user pushing against a handle. You make a lot about the centre effort but I'm rather unsure what you mean.

    About your test in the endgrain situation. You tested a a2 blade in a 37 and a 45 degree situation. The latter failed sooner. Later you did the same with pm v11 with the same result. So I would conclude that higher cutting angles promote more wear. Caveat, long grain planing with even higher angles might prove different.

    Now I am going home and hopefully to bed early. I'm tired!

  12. #72
    I'm a little bit surprised that it fails that badly at 30 degrees, but I guess I shouldn't be. I've noticed smoothing that on any ultramodern hard iron that wears slowly, a final bevel on a BD plane of 35 degrees ensures (unless an iron is defective) that failure is due to wear. The importance of that being that if a surface is being final smoothed, rows of tiny lines are not flattering. But, a while ago when I tested several A2 irons against each other, without exception, the iron that failed to cut first was the iron that chipped out earliest.

    So, I'd suggest a final bevel greater than 32 (my memory wasn't that good, steve noted failures in some irons until he got to 34 degrees).

    http://bladetest.infillplane.com/html/bevel_angles.html

    I don't usually like to get into analytical tests that don't involve the actual process of woodworking, but in this case, steve's experience agrees with what I have seen- that being that even at 30 degrees, an A2 iron will develop small chips that can be seen in a smoothed surface, and that will mean failure considerably earlier than an iron with only 10 degrees of clearance. It will also mean more work to sharpen the iron that chips, and my distaste to sharpen any longer than about 2 minutes from start to finish makes that unsavory.

    It would be interesting to see how the LN plane would fare at 34 degrees or 35 (steve suggests 34 from his test). If it would fail at 35 degrees, then it would suggest that the iron is not on par with LN's average iron, as I haven't seen any damage of the type in your picture when I've used an iron sharpened based on charlesworth's suggested angle of 35 degrees - not even when using the ln #7 on a shooting board.

    All of that said, I would hesitate greatly to extrapolate shooting board test results to apply proportionally or directly for other planing tasks.

  13. #73
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    To totally ignore the minutia of blade wear I will say that the Veritas BU plane hold some advantages (for me

    I have Stanley planes: 3, 2 4s 2 5s, 2 6s and a Tablesawtom roundside # 8. Also have an LN bronze # 4 with 55° frog
    For BU planes: the small # 3, the 4, 5 and 7

    The Veritas totes fit my hand, the Stanleys not so much. The LN, not at all. My right hand comes in at 4.25" across the palm - large, but not all that large. Chipbreakers are sometimes referred to as a "bit" fiddly. Well, when one has essential tremors they can be "real" fiddly. The lack of one can be a blessing. For one who does not run a plane all day, getting the iron back in and going is a lot easier with the Veritas BU planes. The set screws really help as does the tight fit on the Norris style adjuster. As for cambering, all I've needed to do so far is to break the corners.

    Now for all of that, sometimes the Baileys work and the BUs don't. Don't know why although the consensus is my POS bench (I've bought the lumber to build a new bench.) To be fair, sometimes the BUs work and the BDs don't. But I'm usually switching sizes when that happens. I can say with authority that BUs are easier for beginners.

    If you look at the subject from the point of view of using a tool to accomplish a task, the choice generally is to grab whatever feels the best. Sometimes it is just grab whatever is sharp. I have yet to work a plane with a freshly honed edge to needing a re-hone in a single session. For the most part, wear bevels and 30 vs 32 degrees are not issues on my mind.

  14. #74
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    You make a very good point Curt. Its very easy for me and lot of folks to get wrapped up in the minutia of edge retention and ultimate tearout prevention. End of the day I think user comfort is a prime factor for me and probably the one of the biggest factors for most people. I grab the planes that feel good to use most often. Its one of the reasons I almost always reach for a 6 before a 7, even if a 7 might technically be more appropriate...I find them more comfortable and less fatiguing to use.

    Same thing applies for BD vs BU no doubt. People use the planes that feel best and handle the best in there hands.

    I'm very comfortable with using Baily planes, but even I really do appreciate the nuts simplicity of the BU designs. Sometimes the low center of gravity of the BUs feels nicer to me, sometimes the more vertically centralized center of gravity of baileys does. And honestly, while I can and do use set and use chipbreakers with ease, but I must confess that when I am using my LA jack and it comes time sharpen the ease of just popping the blade out and back in really delight me...there is something to be said for simpler designs with less parts (not just in planes but for a lot of things)

    If I had to pick a single camp BD or BU it would be BD. But I must admit that really I'm perfectly happy with either and, for me, it really is nice to have some of each.
    Last edited by Chris Griggs; 12-03-2013 at 3:16 PM.
    Woodworking is terrific for keeping in shape, but it's also a deadly serious killing system...

  15. #75
    It looks like I have to get myself a real BU plane someday, just to know what all the hoopla is about. Any tips for a nice versatile one that doesn't break the bank too much?

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