Building a bench (the kind you sit on)

[Judson Green]

Had you thought of adding a panel? Doesn't have to be a whole frame and panel deal could just apply the panel (or something like that, maybe a inlay, some funky book match something) to the apron. Or perhaps the panel could be a drawer front. I know that's more work and would most likely decrease your storage capacity. But a drawer has its advantages. Let sleeping cats lay.

[Brian Holcombe]

I hope I'm not imposing with this, but I wanted to draw out my thoughts on this considering it's a storage bench;



Frame and panel construction could lend itself to a bit more storage while retaining strength. Tongue and groove panels would be good for this.

[Chris Griggs]

Not imposing at all Brian. I love suggestions and appreciate you taking the time to post with your ideas. I am free to take or leave others idea's and I always get god stuff to consider from other's idea's.

So whats funny is I actually started out with a drawing very similar to yours and deliberately designed away from it. I decided it was just too Arts and Crafts for what I wanted. The truth is that while I like Arts & Crafts furniture I see so much of it that I get bored of it. Frame and panel though actually isn't something I've ruled out. In fact the whole reason I abandoned it in the first place was because I wanted a a shorter apron/body. Now that I might be going back to deeper, f&p is back on the table. I guess I really need to make up my mind about how much storage I want in it. The F&P case and something more like your drawing really makes more sense if I decide I really want a true storage bench vs sitting bench that happens to have a little storage space.

My leg blanks are all glued up so that next step from here is to look at my actual wood and look at things in life size. Currently I'm pretty attached to the exterior curves on the legs along with the curved uprights under the arms to match. In deciding whether or not to go F&P I'll begin by prepping my nice 10" wide boards as if I will use the full width for the apron. I'll also mock up some template for leg shapes look at the apron (or rail & style stock) next to the legs and templates. At this point i need to see full scale to make up my mind.

Thanks for all you input Brian. Again, very appreciated and no, not imposing at all.

[Chris Griggs]

Judson, yes everything you suggested I considered and even sketched out...much of direction I took with the examples I posted, had to do with what drawings and online pics my wife liked best. It is indeed better to let some sleeping cats lie

[Chris Griggs]

Had some good time in the shop today. Didn't do that much exciting though...mostly just prepping stock.

BUT, I did decide to make a 1/2 size to scale model of one leg and the bench apron.

Not for any reason having to with the project. Mostly I just wanted to take this photo to make Mogwai look like he had doubled in size.

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Actually, this was a really helpful exercise and it really helped me test and dial in some proportions. Brain, if you nothing else your drawing reminded me that I should probably make the seat a little lower to accommodate a cushion.

So anyway, again this is half scale and represents the following dimensions.

Total height from floor to armrest will be 23". Height from floor to seat top of wooden part of seat (so not counting future cushioning) will be 17". As I was messing with this I realized that what seemed to look "right" was to divide that distance and have the distance from the floor to the bottom of the apron be half the distance (8.5") and have the distance from the bottom of the apron to the top of the wooden seat be the other half (so also 8.5"). This will leave me with about a 6" deep storage area one the curves, cleats and a t&g bottom is added, which is really about what I was aiming for when I first decided a bench with storage would be nice. The curves on the model are fairly rough, and not quite true to the design, but that's not really an issue because this was mainly to help me with some proportions. I'll dial the curves in when I make a full size leg template.

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[Brian Holcombe]

Chris,

how are you attaching the skirt to the legs? Even with multiple m&t's that is a lot of width to lock in. I personally avoid 90 degree joints that are wider than 4" which do not allow for movement across the grain.

i like to lean on classical proportions, the model by Le Corbusier is a helpful guide which makes the golden ratio very intuitive for practical use.

I think if the bottom of the leg below the skirt looked like a parabola with an off center point (not sure the appropriate mathematical description of this) it would improve how the curves mesh together. Right now I feel as if all of the curves are doing their own independent dance

Above the skirt is quite nice, I like how the arm is offset on the top of the curve.

[Judson Green]

Looks good Chris. Like the beading. Are you gonna curve the inside of the leg (bottom, under the apron) or taper it? Cuz it looks tapered in your mock up.

[Chris Griggs]

That's a neat looking table. Did you make that?

Yeah, the curves aren't there yet. I'm trying to create sorta an outward flair effect, not for any other reason than I saw a picture of a bench I liked were the legs curved outward. Anyway, yeah they aren't meshing right now. One thing that I think is making the curves not quit mesh is that I've been trying to create the effect without making the legs look to skinny at the bottom...though more skinny might be better. I need to keep playing.

For proportions I generally try to either use a golden ratio or a any sorta even subdivision. In this case if you were to divide the height of the bench into 8 parts the distance from the floor to the lid would be about 6/8 (3/4s of total) with leg to apron distance being 3/8 or the total and the bottom of apron to top of seat distance being 3/8 of the total...the remaining 2/8 (1/4) of the height is the seat to top of arm rest.

Anyway, its probably pretty obvious at this point that I don't really know what I'm doing. I just play with different subdivions and try to find something that looks right. It would probably be a good idea for more me to do more reading on classical design.

For the tenon and movement...that's something I was actually just thinking back through. There is of course the F&P option, but I was also thinking that if the multiple tenons were just pegged in holes that have been elongated vertically (except for the top one) that would be both strong and allow for movement.

I may very well just be designing myself into a disaster (both visually and structurally).

Just structurally speaking, I take it you maintain that F&P is the way to go?

[Chris Griggs]

Looks good Chris. Like the beading. Are you gonna curve the inside of the leg (bottom, under the apron) or taper it? Cuz it looks tapered in your mock up.

Thanks. Yes, currently I'm planning a curves to the inside below the apron that transitions into a flat at the apron. I haven't totally figured out the curves yet though and the curves on the mockup are all FUBAR...I didn't get them drawn on that accurately and I accidentally over cut them...for instance the top of the leg should curve out more but I brought it down accidentally which eliminated that effect.

[Judson Green]

personally I wouldn't worry about a frame and panel too much compared to the wide apron structurally speaking. its a 2 person bench right? dining room chairs receive far more abuse than that bench will ever get.

and the joinery (pining the top 4" or so of the apron) your considering seems fine to me. thinking of doors with much wider rails than your apron.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks, yup that is one of mine ( I occasionally make curves). Curves drive me crazy and have often driven me right to the point of turning the entire project into firewood just prior to that eureka moment where you love the result.

i maintain F&P as the wsy to go on this. I'm racking my brain thinking of a wsy to float that joint and maintain the structure and I really can't think of a way to do it well. F&P builds a truss system which is incredibly strong. You can modernize it to avoid the arts and crafts look by how you do the panel and his you attach to the leg (Maloof joints maybe? )

[Judson Green]

No denying it (f&p, like your drawing) would be stronger but why? Does a Maserati need to have the frame of a Peterbilt? At 8½" kinda hard to make a f&p look right. If Chris was going for deeper (more storage capacity) then f&p would be the way. I'd pin (or whatever) to top 4ish inches and use a short tenon (¼" unglued) for the balance. Or pin the top and allow for movement on the balance, think bread board ends.

[Chris Griggs]

No denying it (f&p, like your drawing) would be stronger but why? Does a Maserati need to have the frame of a Peterbilt? At 8½" kinda hard to make a f&p look right. If Chris was going for deeper (more storage capacity) then f&p would be the way. I'd pin (or whatever) to top 4ish inches and use a short tenon (¼" unglued) for the balance. Or pin the top and allow for movement on the balance, think bread board ends.

Yes, this is what I have in mind for the exact reason you mention. Pretty much a breadboard joint with two or 3 tenons. Top tenon glue and drawbored other tenon(s) un glued and pinned in longated hole.

Its a weird depth, big enough that it needs movement, but not big enough to make an F&P look right. F&P would mean reproportioning...which isn't necessarily an issue, I'll just need to think thru things some more.

Thanks for the continued idea's Brian and Judson.

[Chris Griggs]

Question. If I did do F&P what do you think the minimum width of the rails would need to be...structurally speaking. Keeping in mind that they are spanning about 42 inches?

[Brian Holcombe]

I would make them either slightly smaller than the legs (mortise and tenon) or of you did some sort of interlocking joint I would make them the same size as the leg.