long measuring devices and mallet weight

[Curtis Niedermier]

I've got two questions for the Sawmill Neanderthals.

First, what are you using to make "long" measurements? I'm not talking about 20 feet, but basically anything over a foot. I use the 6-inch rule from my combination square, a Stanley framing square and a tape measure for any marking that can't be done with dividers, but the tape measure and framing square aren't very "romantic" (capable, somewhat trustworthy but boring). I asked for a 12-inch Starrett rule for Christmas. It'll be my go-to bench rule so I don't have to pull the rule out of my square, but that still won't cover everything. For instance, tonight, I am building a mortise-and-tenon face frame. For the two pieces with a tenon on each end (rail? stile? need to brush up on vocab), I need to be pretty precise with my measurement and have 23 inches between shoulders. How would you mark that space? I'll probably use the framing square, but wish I had something else. I don't like fighting the second arm when there are tools all over the bench. In our high school shop class we all had 24-inch wooden rules (not sure who made them, but Lee Valley sells some like them). They had brass folded over the ends, but I recall that they weren't high quality and the brass ends tended to shift a bit over time. Are the ones from Lee Valley any good? Anyone else make them?

Question No. 2: How heavy is the chisel mallet that you use to chop mortises? I have a cool mallet that a friend of mine turned from a piece of oak that was part of a beam in one of the old barns on his family's farm. The wood is so dense and solid that it hasn't even dented. But, it's pretty light for chopping some mortises. So I'm building a big dog mallet and am considering adding some brass plates or lead shot to it to add weight. What do you guys think? If it matters, my mortise chisels are the English style chisels made by Iles and sold by Tools For Working Wood. They're pretty sweet.

[David Weaver]

Stainless steel cabinetmakers rules are usually available (made in china) cheaply, and there is a US made tinners rule that's 4 feet long, stainless steel, US made and and probably about $50. The only issue with a tinners rule is only the measurements on one side are useful. The other side of the rule has a scale that converts diameter to circumference or something.

If you have an accurate tape, you can mark 1-24 to get 23 inches and be pretty comfortable with it since you won't have any lash from the hook on the end when you do that. it's hard to know if a tape is accurate to the level you want unless you have a rule to check it, though.

For tenons like you're talking about, I mark the overall length of the rail and then precisely mark the space between the rails (i.e., marking where the tenon shoulders will be) with a marking knife just over the measurement by a tiny amount (since working the shoulders until the knife line is gone will take some length away.

Once I've marked one, I don't measure again. I mark all of the rails of that size off of the original.

[Curtis Niedermier]

OK, David. You wrote something there that interests me. You said you mark a tiny amount past where you want the shoulder. I've done this a few times when sawing tenon shoulders, but I wasn't sure if I was being overly anal, or if others did it too. One reason I did it is because if I want to chisel down to my line, the bevel of the chisel sometimes drives the line back a tiny bit - I'd say about the thickness of a pencil line. The other reason is that, the cheap saw I used to use to saw tenon shoulders had too much set. I'd knife a line, slice out a tiny bit off the waste side to create a v-groove for the saw to start, then drop the saw in place and start cutting. Because the saw had too much set, sometimes the teeth would cut just a hair too much past my line. Now I'm using a much nicer saw that is easier to start and tracks true, so that's not as much of a problem.

As for your tip on measuring with the tape by starting at the 1 inch mark, that's something I've been doing for a long time with the tape and the framing square. I don't trust that the framing square's edge/corner is cut just right.

[David Weaver]

I nearly always cut those shoulders about a half mm to a mm long of the line, and instead of shoulder planing or any other such thing, I just lay the rail on the bench and chop right in the marking line. It's fast, accurate, and the shoulder is tight at glue-up. When the chisel wedges a little bit in the line, it pushes back toward the non-waste side of the cut just a tiny bit. It's more common that I ignore that amount of difference and just mark and cut all of the same width pieces at the same time, trying to hit an exact size is more tinkering than anything else.

I looked up the malco rule (the steel tinners rule). I was incorrect, it's now $65. There are 40" import cabinetmaker's rules that are cheaper, and for practical purposes, probably more useful since they have inch and metric on them. I think at the time, I was looking for US made only, and I've been pretty happy with the tinners rule. It's flexible and durable.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Curtis

As David mentioned, there are plenty of cheap 12"/300mm SS rules available. I have a few dual metric/imperial as I work in both scales. I also have one that is one metre long (with inches as well).

Here is one of the 12"/300mm rules, modified with 400 grit sandpaper glued to the backas non-slip ..



For small measurements - under 12" - I tend to work in mm. For longer measurements I find inches easier.

For the chisel mallet, I recently posted the mortice mallet I built with brass inserts. This weighs 38 oz. It now has 1/8" thick and hard horse butt leather on the ends to avoid damaging the mortice chisel handles. As with yours, this is designed for use with English oval bolstered mortice chisels.



The other hammer I could use for mortice chisels, but now used on un-hooped bench chisels, is a modified Veritas cabinetmaker's mallet. This has a brass head that weighs 18 oz (a little too light for mortice chisels, hence the new mallet). I replaced the handle with one that is 3/4" longer and shaped with better ergonomics and grip. Horse butt leather was added to one side ...



Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

Missed the mortise question. For 4/4 stock mortises, I've been using the same mallet I use for anything else - a 20 ounce wood is good mallet. The only thing I've used bigger than that is a 3 pound sledge cutting the mortises in plane bodies.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I use a 4 fold rule for rough measurements. I try to avoid measuring whenever I can - I have a habit of forgetting numbers in the 5 seconds between workspaces. I generally try and measure off the piece when I can, or get my first piece accurate and then transfer that measurement across pieces. I also use story sticks quite frequently, and have some shop-made bar gauges I use a lot as well. Often the things I build, the measurements aren't as important as everything being the same.

I was just making a face frame, like you did for instance. I took a quick measurement with a tape and the folding rule, and cut a couple of sticks to rough length, then brought that to the work, and made marks where things needed to be. For measurements like in the confined space, (this was a built in) where the actual measurement is really important, I use the bar gauges and trimmed the stick to fit before marking the rest of things on the stick. Then, when laying out parts where the actual width was less important than all parts being equal width, like the tenoned rails, I followed my story stick, but after marking the first one, ganged up the parts in my vise and marked the shoulder lines across all the pieces at once with a medium square.

This doesn't work for everything, and I'm not saying you should never measure, just that for me, the less I have to measure, the easier things work for me, and for the majority of measurements, it's either "close enough", or I can mark directly from the piece or other parts.

[Jim Koepke]

My work improved when I stopped trying to make precise measurements and changed to making parts match. This is where getting square stock comes into play. Also marking reference points and positions of pieces on the pieces. My latest mistake was due to trying to cut back on all the markings of how pieces go together. Because of this a piece got flipped and one side was put together wrong. It was a recoverable error, but still an error.

Story sticks are better than any tape measure. Now most of my measuring is done with an old 36" four fold ruler.

As for a mallet, my big whacker is 24 ounces. It works great driving mortise chisels in most woods. If I had the wood around to make a bigger one I would.

I have developed a good strong hit without getting my injured shoulder into the work.

jtk

[Judson Green]

I've got a 6" and 12" hook rule. The 6" is used nearly every time I'm in the shop. But also use a tape a lot. I've never warmed up to longer rules. Also use veneer calipers, mostly for comparing thickness (to see the difference). Starting to use a story stick more often.

[Brian Holcombe]

I have a few different ways, depending on the project. If it's a layout on a large piece, I'll measure from both sides with a tape and split the difference in error between the measurements. For large 90's I'll use a carpenters square, though I'm considering getting a very large combination square or a Chappell square. My current one has 10ths on one side, which is really annoying when trying to transfer measurements.

For small markups (mortise and tenon, act) I use a starrett double square which I prefer to a combination square, I compensate for the difference in the thickness of the pencil line. I recently purchased a marking gauge from blue spruce I'm looking forward to for some layouts.

[Lonnie Gallaher]

For a very affordable 18 inch SS rule, Office Depot and Staples has a Staedtler rule for about $7. Metric on one edge and imperial on the other. They are cork backed. Very good quality.

[Winton Applegate]

These are my latest "measuring" items :
Some times you don't need to know the size in units
http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/pag...59&cat=1,43513
Some times you do
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I like these for mortising depending on my mood (and whether or not the chisel has a metal band at the top) :
http://www.amazon.com/12oz-Weighted-...rawhide+mallet
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/Produ...---Ohosyo.aspx