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Thread: Alcohol Drying??

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Reno, Nevada
    Posts
    59

    Alcohol Drying??

    Ok I've read several threads with references to the alcohol drying technique. so what is this technique???
    Let the wood speak!

  2. #2
    Turnin' 'round in Epping NH
    AAW, Guild of NH Woodworkers, NH Seacoast Woodturners, NRA, SASS, Libertarian

  3. #3
    i have recently started to do this and it is amazing

    follow along with the article and you are good to go

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Eastern Shore of Virginia
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    1,119
    Chuck,
    I use it. It works. I have also been messing with the boiling technique. I had some cherry that insisted on cracking. I rough turned it, boiled it for an hour, let it surface dry for 20 minutes or so then soaked it in DNA overnight. No cracks and only minute warping. Don't know exactly what the boiling does, but afterwards the cherry water looked and smelled good enough to drink!
    One of the guys who lives in the Amazon uses boiling almost exclusively. After boiling he leaves them in the hot tropical sun for 3 days. Says 99% don't crack or severely warp.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Conway, Arkansas
    Posts
    13,181
    Yup, I've got about 35 roughed out bowls dried with the alchy method. Good bowl blank rate has increased for me by about 99%.!!!!
    Thanks & Happy Wood Chips,
    Dennis -
    Get the Benefits of Being an SMC Contributor..!
    ....DEBT is nothing more than yesterday's spending taken from tomorrow's income.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Conway, Arkansas
    Posts
    13,181
    Chuck,

    As stated before, I use the alchy method. Here's a pic of my bowls wrapped and drying on my "drying" rack. That's only about 1/3 of the dried bowls I have done with this method so far.

    Just look at post #12 in this thread:

    http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=19166
    Thanks & Happy Wood Chips,
    Dennis -
    Get the Benefits of Being an SMC Contributor..!
    ....DEBT is nothing more than yesterday's spending taken from tomorrow's income.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    1,578
    Carole, I understand that boiling somehow "relaxes" the tension in the wood grain and helps reduce the warping and in so doing also reduces cracking. However, the person who explained boiling to me said that you needed to let the blanks dry for up to 6 months in a grocery bag before finishing. That's why I really like the alcohol.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Eastern Shore of Virginia
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    1,119
    I combined boiling/alcohol. AFTER boiling soak in DNA, wrap, let dry until it reaches equilibrium...usually about 5 days depending on the thickness of the bowl. Best of both worlds...

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Carole Valentine
    Chuck,
    I use it. It works. I have also been messing with the boiling technique. I had some cherry that insisted on cracking. I rough turned it, boiled it for an hour, let it surface dry for 20 minutes or so then soaked it in DNA overnight. No cracks and only minute warping. Don't know exactly what the boiling does, but afterwards the cherry water looked and smelled good enough to drink!
    One of the guys who lives in the Amazon uses boiling almost exclusively. After boiling he leaves them in the hot tropical sun for 3 days. Says 99% don't crack or severely warp.
    I was talking to one of the guys at Berea Hardwoods about this subject and he said, "You should boil any wood that comes from a fruit tree". He said that the sugar in the wood causes all sorts of problems and boiling for 45 minutes "sets" the sugar. I haven't tried it yet but I'm gonna.
    ~john
    "There's nothing wrong with Quiet" ` Jeremiah Johnson

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Upstate South Carolina
    Posts
    92
    I've been boiling for the last two years with pretty good results. Havn't tried alchy yet, But Carole's combo method sounds intriguing.

    John: I'd never heard about the sugars issue, but I do know that the fruitwoods are about the worst for cracking and distortion. And. I do know that boiling helps the issue. BTW, I'm stuck in the office too. But since things are a little slow, I can catch up the woodworking forums.
    The less you know, the less likely you are to be subpoenaed.

    Fred

  11. #11

    But have you tried this yet

    I have heard of yet another way to dry green wood. Its called Cedar Shield

    I was wondering if anyone has used it and if the results are good or not.

    Basicly is Cedar oil mixed with silicone based additives. You just soak the wood in it for 30 min. and then let it air dry to the touch. Apperently it make the wood 13% stronger than it would have been. and bonds the fibers together like glueing from the inside out. The wood won't loose it structual strenght and becomes impervious to water, Mold, and bugs.

    Let me know if you have used it

    Thanks
    Keith
    _________________________
    Still burning and turning
    the candle from both ends.

  12. #12
    Well Keith, you got my curiosity going. Here's the ad for Cedar Shield:

    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2></TD><TD vAlign=top>CedarShield


    CedarShield "Chemical Free Wood Preservative and Drying Agent. This dynamic wood preservative can be used for treatment of all hard and soft wood species. Lumber, posts, fencing material and bamboo. No pressure treatment is required. Complete penetration in less than 30 minutes will eliminate all moisture in the wood and provide a decay, water and termite proof media that will last indefinitely. Simply submerse and soak in the CEDARSHIELD solution or apply with a brush, roller or airless paint gun. Helps restore and maintain the natural wood beauty, or if desired, can be painted or stained 72 hours after application. The unique patented silicone and cedar oil additives will eliminate the normal splitting, warping and dimensional control issues found with kiln dried building materials. No special fasteners are required. Nails and screws will stay secured in the wood. Cedarshield can be used on plywood, OSB and particle board. Safe around children and pets. Zero toxicity level. Hand and feet exposure permitted. Can be used to treat and seal CCA,ACQ and other chemically treated surfaces. Packaged in 1, 5, 55 and 275 gallon containers and bulk tanker delivery. Price: $39.95 Gallon. $149.75 Per 5 Pail. $1500.00 Per 55 Gallon Drum. $6995.00 Per 275 Gallon Tote. $139,995.00 Per 5680 Gallon Tanker Truck.
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    ~john
    "There's nothing wrong with Quiet" ` Jeremiah Johnson

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Indiana, PA
    Posts
    287

    CedarShield (long)

    I just googled CedarShield and found this response. Looks like something worth exploring. When I get one of those "round tuits" I think I'll order some. I have some wanut logs that I can give it a try.

    - REPRINT
    CedarShield - Revival of an Old Drying Method
    by Fred Holder / More Woodturning / May 2005
    A post on the Wood Central Woodturning Message Board guided
    me to the web site of CedarCide Industries, Inc, the makers of
    CedarShield a Chemical-Free Wood Preservative and Drying Agent.
    The web site had this to say about the product:
    ”This dynamic wood preservative can be used for treatment of all
    hard and soft wood species. Lumber, posts, fencing material and
    bamboo. No pressure treatment is required. Complete penetration in
    less than 30 minutes will eliminate all moisture in the wood and
    provide a decay, water and termite proof media that will last
    indefinitely.
    ”Simply submerse and soak in the CedarShield solution or apply
    with a brush, roller or airless paint gun. Helps restore and maintain
    the natural wood beuty, or if desired, can be painted or stained 72
    hours after application. The unique patented silicone and cedar oil
    additives will eliminate the normal splitting, warping and dimensional
    control issues found with kiln dried building materials”.
    ”No special fateners are required. Nails and screws will stay
    secured in the wood. CedarShield can be used on plywood, OSB
    and particle board. Safe around children and pets. Zero toxicity
    level. Hand and feet exposure permitted. Can be used to treat and
    seal CCA, ACQ and other chemically treated surfaces. Packaged in
    1, 5, 55 and 275 gallon containers and bulk tanker delivery. Price:
    $39.95 gallon. $149.75 Per 5 gallon pail. $1500.00 per 55 gallon
    drum.”
    Their web site address is: http://www.cedarcide.com/default/.asp.
    I subsequently wrote to CedarCide via the e-mail capability
    provided at their web site with a number of questions about their
    product. I asked about treatment times for harder woods and
    whether we could treat rough turned bowls with CedarShield. I also
    asked if oil finishes such as Walnut Oil and other oil finishes on the
    market would work on woods treated with CedarShield. I asked how
    much a 12” rough turned bowl would use of the solution. Here is their
    response.
    ” The creation of CedarShield is the resurection of a prior art wood
    drying treatment used in the early to middle twentieth century. It was
    abandoned in the late fifties with the introduction of the USA agency
    FIFRA, and subsequently the EPA. The solvents and additives used
    in the earlier treatment solutions were deemed number two inerts and
    registration of the product was mandated when insect control claims
    were made. The inventer, Mr. Ernest Reynolds of Carolina Chemical
    Company in Bowling Green, Kentucky elected in 1957 to hang up his
    shingle and retire in lieu of addressing the registration issues.
    Production of the solution was discontinued at that time.”
    ”CedarCide Industries in concert with GT Products, a specialty
    silicone manufacturer in Grapevine, Texas modified the original
    formula of the early product using NEXT GENERATION ingredients
    for their solvent based drying agent. The compounds used to
    formulate the product are all FDA or GRAS list approved.
    CedarShield, because of It’s compliance with FQPA (Food Quality
    Protection Act of 96) is exempt from registration with the EPA. The
    contents are simply explained as Cedar Oil, Highly refined White
    Mineral oil and a Silicone additive that aids in the crosslinking of the
    molecular make up of the solvent. When introduced to the wood
    cellular, the solution enters the wood through it’s vascular system and
    migrates through out the media. The displacement of the water with
    the solvent and, subsequently, the drying of the hydrogen tails of the
    hydroxyl group molecular chain, permanently prohibits the entry of
    H2O into the wood structure. The final result is dimensional stability
    with a further enhancement of the wood fiber from the transformation
    of the woods resins to a waxy like substance that promotes internal
    adhesion of the wood.
    ”In answer to your questions referencing treatment times, I
    suggest the following. Hard Woods are quicker to treat than Soft
    Woods because of the vascular system that is common to those
    species. Green woods, because of the moisture expanded cell
    structure, are easier to treat than kiln dried or air dried timber. The
    migration of the solution throughout the media is not impeded by
    collapsed hydrogen molecule tails found in dried wood, and the
    exodus of the water simulates that of a vacuum as it evacuates the
    wood, promoting the entry of the solution. In either green or dry
    wood, a 30-minute submersion is adequate. Lengthier treatment
    times may or may not provide any alternate results. Brush on
    application is not recommended for total drying endeavors, however it
    does have a positive result.
    ”It would appear to me that treatment of the wood prior to the
    turning would be the better protocol. The dimensional stability and
    the elasticity issues would have been addressed at that time.
    Perhaps this is something that should be explored.
    ”I do not have any data on the penetration of the oils such as
    Walnut, etc. We do know that the post-treatment wood accepts oil
    based paints and stains but efficacy with the water based products is
    marginal. I would suggest that like likes like and that any Natural Oil
    would probably be compatible with the treatment. That is why we use
    the Cedar Oil as a synergist in the CedarShield solution.”
    ”As to the usage, I believe you will find it to be minimal. I would
    suggest perhaps 5% of the wood weight, providing a re-capture of the
    drip off of solution is practiced.
    ”We are currently making no claims as to safety issues related to
    the use of CedarShield for food disbursement products such as Salad
    Bowls etc. We would anticipate no issues however each and every
    subsequent treatment with another product could trigger or expose an
    unknown result. We will take this under advisement with our
    scientists and evaluate the concern at a later date.
    ”Sincerely
    ”Dave Glassel
    CedarCide Industries, Inc.
    ”2123 Old Ox Road
    ”Spring, Texas 77386
    ”TEL: 1-800-842-1464
    ”dave@cedarcide.com”
    I ordered a five gallon bucket of CedarShield to do some hands-on
    testing. Talking with Dave Glassel and their Scientist Dr. Ben Oldag,
    it appears that this product offers some excellent benefits for
    woodturners who use wet wood for their turning. It appears that a 30
    minute to one hour soak of the solid wood in the CedarShield solution
    (solution should be about 100 degrees for best results) would enable
    you to put the wood on the lathe and final turn it after 72 hours with
    minimal warping and cracking. It also appears that most of the oil
    base finishes would work fine as a finish on the turnings.
    Initially, I didn’t work up a method to raise the temperature to 100
    degrees, so my first testing has been done with the solution at about
    70 degrees. I soaked four pieces of wood, two log sections of
    recently cut apple wood and two pieces of boxwood that already had
    a crack in it. I sawed off the ends of each piece of wood. I also
    soaked the 3/8” slice that I cut off the end of one of the chunks of
    apple wood. One side of it was coated with Anchorseal. It warped
    badly and cracked on the Anchorseal side.
    I gave each of the pieces of apple wood over 30 minutes in the
    CedarShield solution. Actually, I waited until there seemed to be no
    more activity around the wood. I then took it out of the solution and
    suspended it above the bucket to drain. The boxwood was treated
    for almost 24 hours. It has shown no signs of cracking after 72 hours.
    After 24 hours, I sawed one of the pieces of apple wood in half
    lengthwise as a test. The shop is maintained at about 70 degrees
    and during the day it was getting up to almost 80 degrees. After 24
    hours more, one of the half pieces was showing some small cracks. I
    final turned it into a little bowl. The solution was not dry in the wood
    yet. I should have waited the full 72 hours. This turned even better
    than the untreated wet wood.
    The solid piece was showing no sign of cracking after 48 hours. It
    did show cracks after 72 hours.
    The solution is oily but does not seem to cause any problems
    when it gets on my hands. If one were allergic to cedar, I would
    approach this product with great care.
    In the short time that I had to conduct this preliminary test, I don’t
    really have enough information to recommend that everyone run out
    and buy a bucket of CedarShield. However, I felt the information on
    this product was worth passing along. If any of you do try it please
    feed back your findings so that we can publish them. This looks like
    a product that can help woodturners get the best from their newly cut
    timber.
    They have not had their solution tested as food safe for using on
    salad bowls. However, it has been tested and certified child safe so
    that the treatment can be used on wood exposed to children. I would
    suspect from that certification, we can assume it will be safe for salad
    bowls. More on this product next month. It is time to go to the
    printer.
    ______________________________
    Blake & Ruth Ann McCully
    Indiana Co. Woodturners Assn.
    *********

    The destination isn't nearly as exciting as the path used to get there.

  14. #14
    Wow Blake...that's pretty interesting. It looks like this stuff replaces the water with a solid and eliminates uneven shrinkage. If that's true, there's no need for extended drying periods, alcohol soak, or microwave methodology. I'm with you...I'm going to order some m'self and give it a go. The theory appears to be sound.

    Thanks for the info!!
    ~john
    "There's nothing wrong with Quiet" ` Jeremiah Johnson

  15. #15
    Blake,

    Thats more information than what I got and it does sound great!!! I'm going to get some for my deck to start and go from there to the lathe. I'm interested to see if a redwood deck will discolor once the cedar shield is applied to it. normally with other products the wood will gray over time because of water and sun. If it remains the wood color then it could replace trex altogether.

    Thanks for the info.
    Keith
    _________________________
    Still burning and turning
    the candle from both ends.

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