Any stair guys in the audience tonight? Winder info needed.'m

[Peter Quinn]

Peter--- I experimented with a couple of stair plans. Assuming 120" overall rise (8"/rise = 15 rises) I think you can do this with two flat landings (pic 1 below) or with winders (pic 2) I used 22.5 deg. winders to make the tread at the "walking line" closer to the standard tread. You lose about 15" of floor space with the winders at the bottom. If you put the winders at the top, you gain the space on the first floor and lose it at the second.

Attachment 278842Attachment 278841

Jerry, Thanks again for posting that wonderful solution and plan! Do you suppose I can reasonably put a single common tread in front of the winders at the bottom as the first tread? If I bump up to 16 rises I get a 7.5" rise and less pressure from the building department. My other option is to put in a ships ladder, get inspections, then do what ever I want in the cover of dark. Might raise liability down the road or at resale, but sometimes you have to deal with bureaucracy in more circuitous ways. Probably never think about his again as long as its walkable and comfortable.

[Mel Fulks]

Peter, FWIW since you are going to another step ,as opposed to a landing , I don't see any reason why that would not be a good solution .

[Peter Quinn]

Peter, FWIW since you are going to another step ,as opposed to a landing , I don't see any reason why that would not be a good solution .

So your thinking common tread to winder is ok at the bottom. I guess in lots of cases the winders are half way up the rise to take a turn at a corner. Its that whole body turn issue that makes winders dangerous. I read some Canadian threads, maybe older, where guys said only three winder landings were allowed there, but it seems to me that 4 winders at 22.5 degrees makes the body turn and pivot less per rise than a 3 winder landing. I see lots of them use 5 to turn a corner to make modern code. I need to make a story pole for elevations to check the head room conditions at the bottom, I think all is good. I'm figuring to start building this thing in a few weeks after my propane bullet arrives and the weekend job I'm on goes out the door.

[Mel Fulks]

Just looked at my house stair ,it has two common treads before winders, but I see no reason why one wouldn't work just as well. To be honest ,I'm not sure why I thought my earlier comment relevant to your particular situation. I must have thought it was one step, then landing .Our front walkway is six slabs each 5 or 6 feet long and the single step between adjacent slabs always seems awkward ,somehow two steps up is more comfortable than one. Not sure why, but it is mentioned in at least one of my old books.

[Peter Quinn]

Just looked at my house stair ,it has two common treads before winders, but I see no reason why one wouldn't work just as well. To be honest ,I'm not sure why I thought my earlier comment relevant to your particular situation. I must have thought it was one step, then landing .Our front walkway is six slabs each 5 or 6 feet long and the single step between adjacent slabs always seems awkward ,somehow two steps up is more comfortable than one. Not sure why, but it is mentioned in at least one of my old books.

Yeah, its like 2 steps is a stair, one step is a tripping hazard. Your brain gets used to climbing, then the rhythm is interrupted.

[Jerry Miner]

Do you suppose I can reasonably put a single common tread in front of the winders at the bottom as the first tread?

In terms of walkability, I don't see a problem. The issue (as you have recognized) will be head clearance. I don't know how you're framing this, but if the structure allows, could you put the 16th riser at the top, maybe?

Stair Plan 3 (1-3-14).png

[Larry Edgerton]

I. I've talked to some local stair builders.........boy do their answers vary. Some haven't heard of the 7 3/4" max rise yet. HELP!

Thats why I stop by construction code and pick up a signed/dated copy of the code of the day every time I do a stairway. They change them at their whim.

Max rise here is 8 1/8" in Charlivoix , 8 1/4" in Emmett and Cheboygan counties, a much more reasonable number. But codes are not always directly linked to logic.

Larry

[Peter Quinn]

Thats why I stop by construction code and pick up a signed/dated copy of the code of the day every time I do a stairway. They change them at their whim.

Max rise here is 8 1/8" in Charlivoix , 8 1/4" in Emmett and Cheboygan counties, a much more reasonable number. But codes are not always directly linked to logic.

Larry

Your not kidding! I've talked to three different stair guys that came into work, all actively working, all facing and passing inspections locally, all giving me different info on allowable rise. Varies town by town? Or by day? I think most of them are building high end custom and haven't done a tight basic residential installation in decades, probably have't been close to allowable limits to care, plenty of room in a mansion to build a staircase! Most of the basic stairs are factory made around here, cheaper than custom. An 8" rise would help a great deal, and IMO its still very walkable staircase, maybe I'll go argue for 8", bring a few plan views, make the case. A single riser at the top between door and landing seems tricky to negotiate, and the box is already framed, I'm not sure how to interrupt the triple joist to let in the extra rise w/o a lolly column, and I really don't want a column at that location, makes parking the full size van challenging. An extra common riser at the bottom puts me farther into the room than I'd like to be, but the space is there. There's a window there too, had to order it tempered due to location near stairs. This little building has me backed into a corner. I'm thinking with a 105" or so rise (the floor to framing is 108" at the opening, but the slab slopes down, so the height is a bit lower at the rear where the stair will go), three treads (a common and two winders) I make headroom by a couple of inches? I need to confirm that with a more accurate layout.

[Richard Wolf]

What you need to check is how much variance code will allow. Even with a max rise of 7 3/4, most code used to allow 3/8" maximum deviation from code, which means if you build accurately all your rise can be 8 1/8". Don't hold me responsible.

[Larry Edgerton]

Peter, you have touched on something many people miss. Measuring the stair total rise from where they start to where they end. Many guys measure straight down from the upper landing to the floor below without checking if the floor level changes. I always check with a water level, its cheap and it never lies. The one I just finished was 3/4" out of level from just below where the upper landing hit and where the first tread took off.[Log home]

My own basement stairs are an 8" rise with a 9 3/4" run, and I get my busted up old butt up and down them just fine. I like about a 7 3/8" rise, but in a garage or a basement a bit more is not a problem to my eyes.

I have heard nightmares from contractors from here that have gone out east to work around the NYC area as far as codes. One in particular had over 100K in permit fees, I believe in Manhattan, and he was back here because they were holding him up. When is the government going to figure out we that work are the ones paying for all their handouts and leave us alone so we can make a profit. I know I am frustrated here, and out there sounds a lot worse.

Larry

[Peter Quinn]

What you need to check is how much variance code will allow. Even with a max rise of 7 3/4, most code used to allow 3/8" maximum deviation from code, which means if you build accurately all your rise can be 8 1/8". Don't hold me responsible.

I guess I have to take a morning off and go into the building dept office to get the details in writing, or at least a verbal I trust. If this is the case I'm perfect with 15 risers, 4 winders, no probems. I can lay them all out at 8" rise. Then I just have to get all the hand rail stuff right.....and make them!

Larry, Mannahatten is a racket for sure. I wouldn't want to be a contractor there, it's tough enough here. I'm a shop guy and rarely get into the permits world, we make um, other guys install and deal with inspectors. I've made loads of stair treads with odd rise and run combos, no bull nose, modern square edge stuff where riser and tread are glued as one piece with no toe kick space....I see the delivery addresses and scratch my head as to how some of this stuff gets approved. I can only guess some installs happen in the middle of the night the day after CO is issued? This project might go that way too!

[Peter Quinn]

I just got off the phone with building dept, my town has gone back to an older less restrictive residential code, 8 1/4" max rise, 9" minimum run, all commons the same And all winders the same but not necessary to be the same as each other. Makes this a lot easier to fit!

[Jim Foster]

If my town allowed that, I would have been able to use a more standard set of stairs instead of a circular set. Good for you. Install them before they change their minds again!

I just got off the phone with building dept, my town has gone back to an older less restrictive residential code, 8 1/4" max rise, 9" minimum run, all commons the same And all winders the same but not necessary to be the same as each other. Makes this a lot easier to fit!

[Keith Mathewson]

If you use the pic posted for your winders you will have a noticeable kink in the handrail at riser #5, I suggest you lookup dancing winders instead of using balanced winders.

[Jerry Miner]

Keith--

Thanks for jumping into this conversation. I'm not a "stair guy" but I have built a few stairs over the years (and I'm the guy that drew the plan that leads to the "kink" you mention)

You're right, of course. There is a pitch change at Riser 5. Can you help us all understand "dancing winders" a little better? My understanding is that they would have a tread depth at the short end that closely matches the tread depth at the straight run, keeping the pitch close to the same, thereby avoiding the kink.

But doesn't that also mean that you lose most of the "advantage" of the winders taking up less space than a straight run? Think you could sketch out a plan for Peter's stairs that would work better? I know you know a lot more about this than I do.

---Jerry