Tear-out from my smoothing plane

[Winton Applegate]

. . . I don't know any more . . . I just don't know . ..

In order to get a any cut, I had to move the (bedrock style) frog forward.

That DOES NOT SOUND RIGHT !
In theory, with a properly machined plane, moving the frog forward would simply close up the throat but not effect the depth of cut.
So
The bed where the frog sits is not parallel to the under side of the plane, the sole.
I am not saying you should do this but in theory if you were to file THE FROG thinner on the surface that sits on the bed then you would get your 1/16 inch.
The bed still would need to be made perfectly parallel to the sole (another reason to have the surface plate and precision metal working tools some poo poo in these forums).

BUT
and this is a BIG BUT !

Once you sharpen your blade a bunch you will be right back where you are now with a blade that won't reach the work.

Kind of an argument for turning your bow from the Chinese star and toward the Canadian North.
LN is good but LV is more precise and more consistent in their specs.

Hey aaaaaah about that bevel up thing . . .
I just found out I was wrong.
Some body said theirs all tear out and stuff.
I must have gotten into some halusanistic espresso fumes or something.
I was all wrong about that.
I must have hallucinated my perfect surface on the bubinga table and maple projects and purple heart work bench.
OH MAN !
Just wait until Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer hears that our table isn't flawless, I just imagined that is was, and it is, in reality, all torn out. That's IT ! No more espresso ! I mean it ! This time !.
. . . oh man . . .
can I come live with you ?
Q is going to toss me out or take me back to the pound, I just know it.

[Winton Applegate]

Winton, on this planet, I'm afraid what you are saying is incomprehensible.

Keep at it, you'll get it.
(the bevel ups I mean).
Don't tell me . . . Chinese made ?

[Marko Milisavljevic]

I think you are saying (It's hard to really say) that you think that I'm saying that BU planes can't produce smooth surface, and that you don't appreciate that I'm saying that. I'm only offering an example that my particular BU setup, at 50 deg, with this particular piece of wood, wasn't giving desired results (in other words, this wood is difficult, I'm not just saying it is), but the Woodriver 45 deg BD setup with close-up chipbreaker was working as some people say it should, hence, I'm satisfied this particular plane model does work with "close-up chipbreaker" technique, and if it isn't working for him we should compare planes so he would know if it is him or the tool.

It was in no way intended to rile up any BU users.

[Jim Koepke]

Funny how two people living on the same planet, effected by the same basic physical parameter set, can . . .
Live on two freeeeek'in DIFFERENT PLANETS ! ! !

Isn't it odd. That.
Yes.
I think that it is.
Perhaps.
Just a tad.
Odd.
That.

That is why we say,

YMMV!!!.jpg

It sometimes happens to me like that on two pieces of wood ripped from the same board.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

Winton, just for information: the woodriver plane is a bedrock design. They have the frog on an inclined bed. 20 degrees or so. It is a feature, not a defect.

There are some drawings of the design on the LN site.

And one more thing, shortening the blade through many sharpenings won't change anything. It is the chipbreaker that mandates the position of the edge.

[Winton Applegate]

Kess,
Yes
Of course you are right !
That's what I get and deserve a good flogging.

Winton, just for information: the woodriver plane is a bedrock design. They have the frog on an inclined bed. 20 degrees or so. It is a feature, not a defect.

There are some drawings of the design on the LN site.

As they say :
HOW SILLY OF ME
HSOM


I apologize.
I was wrong.


I never found the diagram on LN but I pulled out my LN #4 . . .
had to fight my way through a heavy layer of cobwebs . . .
kidding . . . just kidding


Yep just as you said.
I guess I was picturing in my mind the frog and not remembering the bed.

And one more thing, shortening the blade through many sharpenings won't change anything. It is the chipbreaker that mandates the position of the edge.

Oh Bob
I was wrong, so wrong about the blade as well.
How embariskin !

Just shows how long I have been away from them bevel downs.

I pretty much began to ignore them after "the purple heart debacle" of 2001

Really the one I use the most now is the # 1
hard to believe but true.

What do you suppose is going on with Daniel's plane then ?

Could his chip breaker be THAT far out of spec that he can not advance the blade to make a cut ?

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks again everyone!

I contacted the store I purchased the plane from and the owner immediately sent off a message the Woodcraft product group who then contacted me. They were aware of the issue and simply asked me to verify my address so they could ship me a longer chip breaker. I imagine I'll receive it next week some time. I couldn't ask for better or faster service than that. Once the new one arrives, I'll measure everything and then re-sharpen, get the plane ready to go and see if I get an improvement. I'll post my results.

I'm sure I'll get some BU planes at some point, even if it's just so I can rave about them to Winton For now though, I'm determined to get the absolute most out of the planes I have.

[Winton Applegate]

Marko,

It was in no way intended to rile up any BU users.

Oh . . .
OK.

Ha, ha.
I'm not all that riled.
Mostly banging the table because "Some body has to do it". It is cool that the bevel downs work so well once set. I may one day try to make mine do the same.
I made mine work with a back bevel way back when, then gave up and went BU.
The blade support of the BU is something I don't want to give up.
Interesting the comment about backing off the frog until the throat supports the blade. Sort of like one of the better Japanese planes where the wooden body has been custom fitted to support the blade all the way to the sole. People do that with the bedrock BD ? Or was that a joke. I couldn't decide. Kind of iffy and what about a cambered blade ?

The feel of the bevel up, TO ME, in the tough stuff is just so much more solid, predictable and so easily and repeatably set up for the same cut time after time I just . . .
words fail me.
A loose analogy I suppose would be it is kind of, with me, the thing were now that there are modern fast yachts some people still go the same distances with the old wooden boats. It kind of gets to be more about the boat and less about the trip and the destination. And sometimes the mast breaks off. I was following that young, young girl sailing solo a few years ago and that happened to her in a major storm. Modern yacht would have just motored on I would think.

None the less I joined in with all those donating money for costs to recover the boat after she was rescued. The donations were returned and they abandoned the boat to the sea !
God that was a sad moment for me. I can't imagine how she felt.

. . . hows that for a side track ?
anyway . . .
I just don't see the attraction of the BD in the tough stuff.

[Winton Applegate]

I couldn't ask for better or faster service than that

Now you see, that's why they keep me in the back.
I would have pulled a proper chip breaker out of a plane we had more than one of and handed it to you.
Had the one being shipped sent to the store not to you.

But that is just me
bad Winton . . . BAD !

I'll get some BU planes at some point,

Now don't say that if you don't mean it.
I'm fragile.
Don't kid about a serious thing like that.
Would you really ?
No . . really . . . no . . . really ?
It's hard for me to trust.
My heart has been broke' before.

Seriously though . . . I look forward to your info and experiences with the good chip breaker.

[Winton Applegate]

I would have pulled a proper chip breaker out of a plane we had more than one of and handed it to you.
Had the one being shipped sent to the store not to you.

Now where do I get such preposterous ideas as that ?
That is a good question.
And I will answer it :
http://www.amazon.com/Customers-Life.../dp/0385504454

[Daniel Rode]

The new chip breaker arrived in the mail today.

Original 4 7/8" overall, 3 19/32" edge to slot
Replacement 4 29/32" overall, 3 11/16" edge to slot

That's just over 3/8" more adjustment room. I needed no more than 1/8", so I'm set.

It ain't all rainbows and unicorns, though. After just a few test strokes in some reversing grain oak, I noticed the cut was off on the right side. Sure enough, a bit of shaving had worked it's way between the iron and chip breaker. I had the iron skewed that way or I might not have noticed. I expected to work the leading edge, so I'm not surprised or concerned about this. It's a 2 minute job.

With the iron straight and sharp but not pristine, I set the chip breaker as close as I could by eye. I then took some cuts on pine, oak that was reversing 180 degrees and a scrap of flame maple. I worked edges and faces in both directions. Most had some tearout from previous work.

With all the pine I tried, I got a perfectly smooth surface in either direction. I really couldn't tell the difference. The oak had grain that led up to a knot and then reversed. Prior tear out was significant just beyond the knot. The plane skipped a little over the rock hard knot but immediately began to leave a smooth surface, slowing working down to remove the tearout. A sharper iron might have helped more. The flame maple was next. Every direction is the wrong way because of the undulating grain. I did both edges and the face going both ways. Amazing. There was a tiny bit of tear out but I think it may have been a pre-existing condition. The really bad tear out on the edges cleaned up nicely and left a smooth surface. I worked all 3 sides from both directions. I got smooth results both ways.

That's a pretty informal test. I have a new finishing stone coming this week. I'll clean up the chip breaker edge and get the iron as sharp as possible and do some more testing and take some pictures.

[Chris Griggs]

Great news Danial! Thanks for sharing. If you haven't already, be sure to polish a secondary bevel on the outside leading edge of the chipbreaker...(somewhere in the 45 to 50 degree range will suffice). This helps with the tearout further, but more importantly it strengthens the edge of the unhardened chipbreaker, which are prone to chipping/crumbling when used heavily in hardwood at the low angle they come at.

[Daniel Rode]

Essentially like a micro bevel on a chisel or plane? Since the WR chip breaker comes beveled, I assume the idea is to flatten than angle a bit to make it stronger.

Great news Danial! Thanks for sharing. If you haven't already, be sure to polish a secondary bevel on the outside leading edge of the chipbreaker...(somewhere in the 45 to 50 degree range will suffice). This helps with the tearout further, but more importantly it strengthens the edge of the unhardened chipbreaker, which are prone to chipping/crumbling when used heavily in hardwood at the low angle they come at.

[David Weaver]

Ditto - 50 degrees of microbevel (make it half a millimeter or a millimeter) and that should be the last you see of tearout.

[Chris Griggs]

Essentially like a micro bevel on a chisel or plane? Since the WR chip breaker comes beveled, I assume the idea is to flatten than angle a bit to make it stronger.

Yep. Exactly. Just like on a chisel or plane.