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Thread: Tools vs skill

  1. #106
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    One cannot judge the aesthetic quality of things in categories of stuff one dislikes. If you hate jazz music, you cannot judge whether one jazz piece is great and another weak. If you hate all red wine, you cannot meaningfully judge a good cab from a bad. Now you can say that jazz and wine are things you dislike, and that is valid. But your personal dislike is not informative about the relative quality of specific example of wine or song. You really need to be a lover - a connoisseur - of something to judge examples of that thing.

  2. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Much of those I've mentioned, with exception to the professional amateurs, designed in the classical canon (classical proportions). Dislike the style if you prefer, but it is good design and worthy of classification of such. I admire the 18th century masterworks along with French Art Deco, ect, doesn't mean I want to build or own them.
    Yes, I know that the designers were accomplished and knew what they were doing, I just don't like the result (including any of the pictures). There are things from 200 years ago that I don't like, either, but not generally wholesale like most of the stuff designed in the last 100 years. It can be cool when an entire house is kept original (which I guess is probably not that common for industrial design prior to 1950, but there's some folks with all original houses from late 50s and early 60s).

    There is probably one thing true in design, you have to do something different if you want to make a lot money, and most of the designers we remember have had commercial success, and commercial success doesn't usually come by accident. If I was working for pay (which will never happen), I'd probably have a different design sense, because you can get a chest of drawers for $1000 that you probably wouldn't dream of making for yourself at that price, but some of the other junk that's made now and called original design can bring several thousand dollars. It's the era of "the customer's always ripe" for design at this point, at least in terms of the stuff offered to the general public without being someone known to have deep pockets. By that, I mean you can order yourself up any number of $5,000 chairs that aren't expensive to produce, but if you want to get to one-off stuff costing a multiple of that, you have to first find someone who is doing it and sometimes wealthy customers don't like to share information about who does work for them.
    Last edited by David Weaver; 02-25-2014 at 3:18 PM.

  3. #108
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    Somewhat off topic, but....

    RE: Shaker. I think its a misunderstood form (at least among lay people...not necessarily among woodworkers). Anything that is "American looking" in origin, that is not overly adorned, and doesn't have a lot of curves gets called Shaker. I dislike a lot of stuff called "Amish", "Shaker", and "country", but I love a great deal of authentic Shaker stuff as well as much of the pre 1900 vernacular and country furniture.

    Here are some example of Shaker furniture from the Phila Museum of Art....some of it is pretty typical Shaker...some may surprise you...the use contrasting figure and tone in the second photo was a of particular surprise to me. Not that Daniel or anyone else has to like it or even appreciate it for that matter (I don't love everything Shaker)...I just find that what gets called Shaker and what is Shaker are often different.

    IMG_20130629_133042_268.jpg IMG_20130629_133104_967.jpg IMG_20130629_132403_507.jpg
    Last edited by Chris Griggs; 02-25-2014 at 3:21 PM.
    Woodworking is terrific for keeping in shape, but it's also a deadly serious killing system...

  4. #109
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    The center image is a little unusual in that it has more decorative elements than I'm used to seeing. That cabinet is actually quite striking. IIRC, adornment was considered frivolous at best. They strove for utility and simplicity. Veneering was worse that frivolous, it was considered dishonest.

    I love their innovation and balance of simple elegance and robust construction. Many of the pieces have wonderful proportions as do those in the images you posted. However, the overly simple designs leave me dissatisfied. I appreciate the design, I just don't like it.
    -- Dan Rode

    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Rode View Post
    The center image is a little unusual in that it has more decorative elements than I'm used to seeing. That cabinet is actually quite striking. IIRC, adornment was considered frivolous at best. They strove for utility and simplicity. Veneering was worse that frivolous, it was considered dishonest.
    Yeah, they seemed to have stuck to that in general, but I'm learning that there are examples where they started to adorn things more. I really like those examples, and think they strike a nice balance. Next time I go to the Phila Museum I need to read the cards and see when and where that sewing cabinet was made.

    I also like that they some how managed to pull off weird proportions and asymmetrical drawer arrangements i find aesthetically pleasing (for reasons I can't explain).


    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Rode View Post
    I love their innovation and balance of simple elegance and robust construction. Many of the pieces have wonderful proportions as do those in the images you posted. However, the overly simple designs leave me dissatisfied. I appreciate the design, I just don't like it.
    Certainly, nothing wrong with that. No requirement to like it. I certainly don't like it 100% of the time.
    Woodworking is terrific for keeping in shape, but it's also a deadly serious killing system...

  6. #111
    Well, Derek started quite a topic that has jumped all over the place. Whether amateur or accomplished craftsman the end goal of our work is to create. What tools that are used to get there matters little, what matters is a final creative result, one that you can be proud of, that others may find pleasure in and is produced honestly. A number of years ago my life revolved around photography, art photography with large format cameras. My tools were chemicals, film, lenses, paper, shutters, and 8x10 and 12x20 cameras… In order for me to be free so that I could create, I had to become skilled with my tools so that they became secondary to what mattered - the journey and personal growth that came along with creating. The fact that someone else may find pleasure in my work was a major bonus. I adopted the same approach as a woodworker and craftsman. Whatever tools you choose in your work, you must become skilled with their use to be free from them so that your focus can be on what is being created. Along with this it is important to understand the history of your craft, where it has been and where it is going. Where you go in your journey as a woodworker is up to you, but whatever tools you choose proficiency will allow you to be more creative. The more you create with that freedom from your tools you grow personally as does your creative vision.


    With all the criticism that can be leveled at show circuit woodworkers, and provided they are being honest in their endeavors, they choose the type of tools, processes, projects and design, often along the squared off mission or shaker styles for a reason. (I am by no means pigeon holing those styles) For entry level woodworkers who’s skills, vision and growth is at the begining of their journey, this design is easy to understand visually and in construction. They can be given credit for at least creating the spark to get the tinder glowing in those people. The more time you spend woodworking from there, you move on, you find other forms, proportions and designs pleasing as a natural process in growing as a person and woodworker. This can also be seen in how someone may view art and where they are in that journey. The large impressive landscapes of Ansel Adams are widely appreciated and easy to comprehend, but few know that he was really only productive visually for 12 to 15 years. Compared to his contemporary Edward Weston, who was productive during his entire life as a photographer, his work stands tall over Adams visually and in complexity and content. The point being, Weston continued to grow and see which is evident in his work, and his work is less likely to be fully appreciated by someone in the beginning of their journey. This can be paralleled in accomplished woodworkers contributions of today and the masters of the past. How relevant is their work, how productive have they been, is their work still widely collected, are they known for more than just a single chair design, or sharpening technique? I always cringe a little when I see the title “Master” applied to contemporaries as it really should only be awarded by historians and curators. But, I am headed down a topic for another thread perhaps.


    So, use whatever tools you desire, learn the history of employing those tools, become proficient and skilled with those tools, and in turn whatever you create will be from the personal journey and not from the means. If you are more skilled at using a router plane instead of paring chisel, use whichever gives you the freedom to create, the rest will follow.
    Last edited by James Conrad; 02-25-2014 at 4:38 PM.
    "The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Proust

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Cree View Post
    As one with limited tools and even more limited skill, I could not go without a router plane. I think I use it just about every time I make something. I bought a shoulder plane some time ago and I think I have used it once, mainly because I use the router plane in its place more often. If I do not saw a straight enough, I used a shooting board, a router plane, etc. to get me back where I need to be so I can move on....
    I don't care that others use router planes, they're fine tools. I just find them inefficient due to setup time and the constant blade adjustment required, too many bits and pieces to assemble before use. Or maybe it's because I started woodworking before LV designed theirs.

  8. #113
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    I actually piled a router plane onto a large order a few weeks back in sort of a 'what the heck' moment. I'm glad to see they're so popular…I receive it today.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  9. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Stew Hagerty View Post
    Now, understand that my take on this is going to be very different than most of you. I used to be a general contractor. As such, I did plenty of trim work and some built-ins. However, I always wanted to be able to do some real woodworking. I kept making sure I had some space for it wherever I lived, but I just never found the time.

    Then, in March of '08 I contracted a viral respiratory infection that nearly took my life. After 8-9 months, I was finally out of the woods and more than ready to start my recovery. However, during my physical therapy sessions, I began experiencing a weird kind of dizziness. I call it "spatial disorientation". I also found my leg losing sensitivity and awkward to move. As my neurologist performed test after test, my condition continued to worsen. Eventually I lost all feeling and function in my right leg and a reduction of fine motor control in my right arm and the "spatial disorientation" reared it's head whenever I was stressed or tired. Now in a wheelchair, I went to IU Medical Center, Cleveland Clinic, John's Hopkins, and finally to Mayo Clinic. It turns out I have something called Transverse Myelitis. It is a Immuno-Neurological disease in the same family as MS. There is no cure, and no one knows what causes it, however a large percentage of people have had a viral respiratory infection not too long before contracting the disease…
    Stew, I meant to reply to this earlier and it slipped my mind. Your story is inspiring, and humbling. I'd like to think that if I were in your circumstances, I'd be as courageous as you are, but somehow I doubt it. Your post definitely puts petty arguments about dovetailing into proper perspective…hope you keep on keepin' on.

    - Steve

  10. #115
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    Steve's post reminded me that I wanted to respond to yours. This thread is so long, I'm having trouble keeping up

    I think you captured exactly why I like working with hand tools. It makes me feel closer to my work. It's quiet and intimate and there's a direct and tangible connection between my actions and the changes to the wood. I have to read the grain and then work with what it gives me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stew Hagerty View Post
    What I have found is that working with hand tools makes me feel closer to my work; somehow more directly involved. That is how woodworking and the necessary tools required works for me, with my level of skills and capabilities. Every person is unique. Each has his or her own types of projects, physical capabilities, skill level, etc. Those are the things that make woodworking such a personalized hobby/profession. Each Maker is unique. What tools and techniques they use to achieve their goals is up to them. It is the end result and the personal satisfaction that matters.
    -- Dan Rode

    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Voigt View Post
    Stew, I meant to reply to this earlier and it slipped my mind. Your story is inspiring, and humbling. I'd like to think that if I were in your circumstances, I'd be as courageous as you are, but somehow I doubt it. Your post definitely puts petty arguments about dovetailing into proper perspective…hope you keep on keepin' on.

    - Steve
    Thank you Steve. My whole point was that it really doesn't matter. When it's all said and done, does a pared dovetail look or hold any better or worse than a cut dovetail as long as both are well made? The simple answer is no. The only difference is in the personal preferences of the maker. Now those preferences in my case are partly physical. On good days, I have enough control in my arm (of course it figures that I'm right handed) to cut dovetails reasonably well with little to no paring required. On other days I can't, so I cut then pare. Other makers preferences my be skill level, tool collection, or simply that's the way they learned. Speaking of tool collection... To me that has something to do with the way I do things too. I mean, who doesn't like new tools (new to the person, not necessarily new in age). And if you have a tool, why not use it. It's fun. Isn't that why so many of us do this? Because it's fun?

    Anyway... Thanks again Steve. I do what I can, when I can, and enjoy every minute of it.
    ___________________________________________

    Oh, and by the way. Daniel, that is what makes woodworking such a calming pastime. We are not alone in our feelings about working with our hands. So many fellow woodworker that I've spoken with express the same sentiment.
    Last edited by Stew Hagerty; 02-26-2014 at 11:30 AM.
    "I've cut the dang thing three times and it's STILL too darn short"
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    Stew Hagerty

  12. #117
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    Well said Stew,

    I think woodworking is a unique "art form" in that there are so many tools and materials/mediums that one can work with. Certainly ones unique physical and mental characteristics combined with ones preferences in both tools and materials combine to produce an almost infinite way to create things that are not only pleasing to the eye but can fill functional requirements in our real world as well. I think you make an important point about the fun thing too. I have recently started working with a little different material/medium, green wood. I have many ways I might justify that preference but in the end I just find it more fun to work in a softer easier to work medium, especially with hand tools.

  13. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by John Coloccia View Post
    Cosman's got his thing. I have some of his videos. They're quite good, actually. I think he's a great teacher. Where I draw the line, generally speaking, is criticizing one method over another. I run across this in the guitar world BIG time. I've started using CNC to help in the shop. There are lots of people out there that think you just stick in a piece of wood, push a button, and out pops a guitar. Well, even if that's how it worked, so what? It's still my design. My ergonomics. My sound. That ISN'T how it works, btw. It's more like you get some rough parts that still need a lot of handwork, fitting, etc...not a whole lot different than pushing a router around one of my templates, only it does the pushing and I can be off doing other things that really benefit from hand work.

    But there are endless discussions about the guitar sounding dead and lifeless if a CNC machine touches it. What nonsense...just absolute nonsense. These are the same people that complain that high end, boutique guitars cost many thousands of dollars. Well, if I put 100+ hours and $600 in materials and hardware into a guitar, guess what...you can't have it for $1000.

    I've generally been fortunate that most people in the real world really don't care about any of this nonsense. They don't care if it's a guitar from 4 years ago when it really truly was mostly built by hand, or one from 2 years ago when I started getting better with jigs and did a lot on bandsaws, routers and tablesaws, or one this year that will be mostly roughed on the CNC with final neck/body contours done by hand. In my world, I'm 100% about end results and I consider all of these other concerns to be academic, at best.

    That said, the more you do something, and the better you get at it, the easier it is to accomplish with less specialized tools, and that's a good thing. I'd be in big trouble if I constantly had to make jigs and fixtures for things that today I can just grab a knife, or a chisel, and just quickly do by hand and by eye. I don't see that as being a goal, though. It's just something that happens. I think we'd loose a lot of beginners if they had to master hand tool skills before actually building something. I think people should just build however it is they can.
    "the more you do something, and the better you get"

    And that is it.

  14. #119
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    Great things could be accomplished with CNC. The trouble is that most people oriented into thinking in that line just do not also have the aesthetic sense which could be combined with using the most modern manufacturing methods. Their brains are just coming from an entirely different place.

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