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Thread: Tools vs skill

  1. #61
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    I don't think Cosman invented the visible through or half dovetail. A lot of folks seem to enjoy those dovetailed blanket chests and visible dovetails on drawers of fine furniture.

  2. #62
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    And personal taste is a funny thing. I rather like wedge through tenons. Here's a detail from a cabinet I made that most folks seem to think is an intriguing bit of inlay instead of a wedged tenon ...


    And do you object to them in stools and chairs?


  3. #63
    Wow, Sean. That's a beautiful stool. Nice detail on the cabinet, too.

  4. #64
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    I enjoy visible joinery when executed with discretion, so a minimum of contrasting woods, not to often per piece, ect. The Japanese enjoyed looking at the structural connections in their temples 1000 years ago, and I'm enjoying looking at the structural connections of furniture today.

    there are plenty or examples in a variety of furniture styles, executed by masters, where visible joinery is celebrated.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  5. #65
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    there are plenty or examples in a variety of furniture styles, executed by masters, where visible joinery is celebrated.
    Perhaps joinery openly laid bare seems unnoticed to the observer. It is but a texture before our eyes leading the mind into a daydream adventure.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  6. #66
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    Its the journey, not the tools or the skills alone

    When I get a new "old" tool, I must try it. There are many times one tool is more suitable than another, however, many different tools can accomplish the same basic needs adequately. I enjoy studying how each tool works. Most makers claimed to have made the best, but unless you are doing the same thing over and over, you will usually find a different tool that can do it better than another in certain cases. For instance, the saw that can cut dried hardwood well will usually have trouble cutting wetter wood. Does that mean the saw that can cut wet can't cut the drier wood? Of course not. It just won't to it as well or as easy. The situation dictates the need. For instance, I have three large router planes. When I cut sliding dovetails I use a chisel to hog out the waste, one router (without fine adjustment) to take more out and another router (with fine adjust) to finish the depth. Its just easier to do it this way (for me). Lee Valley makes a tool that holds a chisel turning it into a handplane. While I am sure some people could do many different planning tasks with it, I seriously doubt they would enjoy flattening a bench top with it. Again, the situation dictates. In essence. a tool that is most suitable for the task will be easier to master than a less suitable tool. However, you must spend the time determining what "most suitable" really means. Then, you will gain insight in the tools you buy and yes, you will find you don't need as many. Perhaps the best way to help is to develop a list of questions one should ask of a tool. Does having a certain feature really effect the use of the tool? Is it suitable for what you think you need? Is there an easier or better way? The beauty of most wood working tools is that they are inherently simple tools. If they are sharp, they will probably work. Enjoy the journey.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    As far as the dovetails, by FAR the best thing to do with them is not worry too much about them being perfect and cover them up with something that's actually attractive.

    One of the worst things the cosmans of the world has flung onto us is a world of sharp cornered furniture with rows and rows of dovetails and wedged through tenons, and no sense of anything that actually draws the eye and moves it along and massages it as it follows what we're looking at. It's like living inside of a watch and looking around at all of the gears all the time.
    I would generally agree with that. I like a little exposed joinery here and there where it makes some sort of statement, but doing it just to show off your joinery skills is something I don't find particularly attractive. Either way, if you can do them right off the saw, great. If not, great too. It's sure faster if you can saw accurately, but this isn't a race, is it?

    I say spend whatever money you want to spend and use whatever tools you want to use. I know I've spent a lot of money on tools over the years. I also know that I do probably 90% or more of my hand work with a very limited set of tools...we were just talking about this in the instrument forum, actually. I think over time people tend to simplify their processes and use less and less contraptions. That said, I don't really feel like anyone really needs to be the protector of hand tool purity and make sure that beginners develop all of the skills upfront before being allowed to work on something. If the tool helps you and you can afford it, buy it, but don't feel bad a few years from now if you just grab for a chisel instead and the wizbang tool sits unused in the corner.

  8. #68
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    Just checked out Becksvoort the article Sean linked to. Even the article being referred to says.

    "When you cut the pins, your sawkerfs should, ideally, be right
    on the layout lines. You could saw close to the lines and pare to
    them later, but this is a slow and inefficient process. Better to put
    the extra time into practicing cutting to a line beforehand."

    So the article isn't really teaching a method by which you saw away from line and then a pare to fit. Its teaching a method by which you saw to the line with the intent of fitting off the saw, and then pare to fit if/when/where needed. That is an important distinction. For most of use things will need final fitting sometimes and it an important skill to have...BUT sawing away from ones lines with the intent of trimming everything to fit is counter productive (e.g. slower and less accurate)...based on this conversation (though honestly only I only skimmed it) I had assumed the latter was what the article was advocating, I was very glad to see that it was actually teaching the former.
    Woodworking is terrific for keeping in shape, but it's also a deadly serious killing system...

  9. #69
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    Yes it is good to know of the most efficient way and to strive for it, but it is also useful to know practical alternatives to keep people building successfully even before they can accomplish the most efficient way. And a culture of looking down noses at alternative ways needlessly exalts form over substance. If I ever had a blog, I think I'd call it the pragmatic hobbiest and unashamedly show how to get things built - most efficient or otherwise.
    Last edited by Sean Hughto; 02-25-2014 at 8:21 AM.

  10. #70
    I go back to an old saying:
    A bad carpenter blames his tools,
    It is not the tools we use which make us good, but rather how we employ them.
    Carpe Lignum

  11. #71
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    Sean, I don't view a criticism of paring to the line to be "looking down the nose". If someone is to be taught a method, then sawing to the line introduces fewer opportunities for errors to creep in. Learning to saw straight is just an entry skill. The reason most do not try to do so is not one of lack of skill, but lack of confidence. We need to teach a "go for it" approach as much as teach basic skills.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Hughto View Post
    Yes it is good to know of the most efficient way and to strive for it, but it is also useful to know practical alternatives to keep people building successfully even before they can accomplish the most efficient way.
    No disagreement about that from me Sean. Actually, I couldn't agree more.

    I just happened to fall into a trap when I first got started of slowly sneaking up on everything, and it slowed my down a lot and caused me a lot of frustration, so I like to encourage folks to push themselves. At the end of the day in the context of an individual project or task, a person should do what works for them or gives them enjoyment, to get the result they want.

    I strive for efficient and accurate sawing and or planing but I certainly still do a fair share of fitting. If I have a sliding dovetail that going is to be kept visible, I will use a chisel guide to fit it if that's what its takes. My DTs certainly don't always fit off the saw, and if that happens I certainly won't hesitate to reach for my float to trim them to fit. I'm also still pretty piss poor at sawing plumb with large rip saws so if I am ripping something by hand that needs to be precise width I mark 2 lines. One to saw too and one to plane too. This allows me to practice getting the best saw cut I can without risk to the end result.

    Even if one saws perfectly 99% of the time (I certainly don't come close to that) knowing how to make corrections in definitely and essential skill..a skill that many claim separates the good from the great.
    Last edited by Chris Griggs; 02-25-2014 at 9:09 AM.
    Woodworking is terrific for keeping in shape, but it's also a deadly serious killing system...

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Hughto View Post

    And do you object to them in stools and chairs?
    Yes, but those are nicely executed.

    I support your proposed spoof blog (or maybe not a spoof) that suggests any method that does the work well is a method good enough to ...well, do the work.

    I brought up cosman because he's got disciples all over the place repeating his boasts (things about always sawing to the line, etc) and casting stones at anyone who disagrees (or even like me, just doesn't care). I personally always shoot for sawing to the line, but if my dovetails don't come out looking perfect, but are at least handsome, I call that more than good enough. Gobs of 3/4" material with dovetails that have very fat tails and tiny tiny pins just put me off, more so than dovetails showing in general, because they look like someone is trying to protect a boast (as in, be able to prove they did them by hand) about something that shouldn't be showing, anyway.

    A few beads, reeds and mouldings would look far better, but that kind of stuff wouldn't play well at a wood show where you have a headset on and are trying to work really fast to wow onlookers.

    I'm going to set up a blog that says:
    Beginners - the world has enough pens, fat lipped bowls and exposed dovetails. Let's do something you'll still like after you've been woodworking for 25 years.
    (I'm kidding, I'd never set up a blog - there are more than enough of those by unaccomplished woodworkers, too)
    Last edited by David Weaver; 02-25-2014 at 8:27 AM.

  14. #74
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    Well perhaps I am reading tones into things that are not intended, but I've heard the tones in real life face to face conversations too, so ...

    You are a phychologist, right? You detect no hint of a sort of machismo chest thumping as in "real men do it right off the saw" and "only unskilled loser pansies have to pare" in these sorts of discussions?

    I'm tired of the debate. But I remember not so many years ago being intimidated by entry level skills like sharpening and sawing and so forth. I'm glad there was no one around to tell me I was somehow "cheating" when I found ways to overcome my lack of "entry level" skills.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Hughto View Post
    You detect no hint of a sort of machismo chest thumping as in "real men do it right off the saw" and "only unskilled loser pansies have to pare" in these sorts of discussions?
    I have detected it, and I am in the "way too lazy to pare" camp. It's kind of a goofy sentiment in general to worry about anything other than how the piece turns out, and how it was designed and whether or not when you step into a room and look at it, you notice "wow, that's a piece with nice proportions" or..."look a square box, but the dovetals sure are perfect, I couldn't put a pin between them anywhere". It makes the whole casting stones about paring (which I've never seen go the other way, from the parers to the saw-ers) goofy.

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