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Thread: Japanese chisel UPDATE and sharpening Epiphany !

  1. #1
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    Japanese chisel UPDATE and sharpening Epiphany !

    So I wanted to thank you for all your guys advice on the last 2 threads about sharpening and my Japanese chisels, it has lead
    to a pretty cool break through for me, and Dr. Weaver I think your going to love this...


    first off I used a honing guide and sandpaper to regrind the chisels to 30degrees, worked very fast as said, and they work much better now.
    I'm still not sure what to do with the 3mm chisel.... it came ground at 40degress?


    Then I went on to sharpening.... the bevel on the chisels is longer so it's easier to balance, but it still didn't feel right...
    since you guys mentioned sharpening techniques and stuff I had this in the back of my head, I thought "why not give Paul Sellers method
    a shot?" I did, and WOW.


    It took me maybe 30 minutes to get the basic hang of it, so easy! of course I gouged the stones a little at first trying to figure out what it feels like when I'm
    'on the edge'. but that turns out to be a non-issue, I didn't over think, just did it. then.....


    I remembered David Weaver mentioning sharpening with a single Washita stone and a strop, and that he tried it with a king 1k (or was it a 800.?) and the results were not the same. make sense, the strop can only go so far. so what stone do I have that fits the bill..... ?


    the Sigma 1.2k !!!! very hard... leaves a bright almost shiny finish, much finer than you'd expect. hated it as a 1k... but for this method..
    (for comparison I have a 2k Bester than leaves a coarser dull gray finish.)


    I tried it and then went to the strop... the edge I got is as good as anything I've ever got before, the sigma 13k is the only stone I feel matched the loaded strop in sharpness. and I did this with only 1 stone ! much faster... and it's much easier for me to hold the blade this way.. and finally I don't need to hesitate sharpening a chisel


    somehow I also get a burr just as quickly this way.

    I always thought the strop was too sensitive, too easy to ruin the edge, but with a rounded edge that danger dosen't seem so much there, you can be quite aggressive with it, just watch Paul Sellers.


    I only thing I wonder now... what kind of edge would I get out of a very fine oil stone or the new dual-stones.. interesting hard to quite the stone game but I have to say... I'm much closer now then ever.

    I still haven't decided if this is how I'll work or not, only time will tell, but I think it's great and Its good to share it.
    Last edited by Matthew N. Masail; 03-04-2014 at 10:05 AM.

  2. #2
    That's good! Anything that facilitates keep the tools sharp and making actual sharpening quick (and without extra thoughts) is good.

    The king doesn't work as well with a strop because it's got a lot of fresh abrasive, little ability to burnish because of it, and the strop can't do enough with the edge.

    The qualities of an oilstone edge are completely different - the grooves shallower and it's much more responsive to a bare leather strop (a loaded strop would probably also be fine). Oilstones are at their limits with a white #2 steel chisel, though, and beyond that they are past their limits.

    It sounds like you've got yourself a new useful and very quick process. You can use it for a while, and figure out whether or not you think there's anything lacking in practice of actual woodworking.

    Never mind the 3mm chisel for now, you'll find in use that it doesn't need quite the same attention to geometry that a 24mm chisel would. Narrow chisels are probably delivered steep because users don't proportionally reduce how they strike them, and quickly find edge damage because of that - that'd be a guess. I never get too particular about anything that narrow because you're often using it somewhere that you're striking in a tight spot or across the grain to remove something (like if you're making planes).

  3. #3
    I think a lot of the impact of your post will be lost on most folks unless they try something similar. Using the washita only has been informative. AT first I thought it probably wasn't fine enough as a final step. Then I thought it wasn't fine enough for final smoothing, and then I thought it wasn't fine enough for paring. Now I think it's fine enough for everything. The learning curve to get everything out of it wasn't something I could read on a blog post, but it's enough so that I don't really have any interest in using anything else to sharpen at this point. Grinding has to be a little more precise, but it illuminates how much of a waste of time it is to sharpen a tool that's in need of a grind, anyway.

    The only thing I can't just teleport to everyone is a good smooth piece of leather that's clean and free of anything that will scratch an edge. That's an important part of the process, though MDF - if oiled and kept clean and broken in might work. Leather I've gotten on ebay is hit or miss, but you only need one or two "hit" pieces to forgo the compound, too.

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    Thanks David ! I can honestly say you were the inspiration for this.
    I think your right that it probably will be lost on most people, (even I'm a little sad to see the dream of a super finishing stone go but it's fading), but's it's a real, real shame. this feels so much more like real sharpening, if I can say that. and I think the bar for the edge is higher with less stuff - more into edge qualities than sharp and sharper. I notice what you mean about the differant feel the planes feel differant too. with waterstones I don't know how many options you have, it's sharp and that's it. maybe I'm still a little high on the rush but it's as if I've come across "the truth" . it's far quicker and more practical than what I was doing before.


    I have a horse butt strop that I recently got from TFWW. it's 15inches long, so I can easily cut it in half length wise and have one plain and one with compound.
    considering compound is a big part of this current routine, would you suggest smooth side or rough?

    what is the plain strop good for?
    Last edited by Matthew N. Masail; 03-04-2014 at 12:51 PM.

  5. #5
    For compound, it doesn't matter which side you use. (I prefer smooth, it makes it easier to clean off compound and metal swarf)

    For bare leather stropping, I'd use the smooth side no matter what. It's critical to be able to wipe swarf off of the leather and you won't be able to do that with fuzzy side out.

    give the horse butt a little time - it's like wood if yours is like mine (I bought a strip - as in the whole strip off of a horse instead of just a piece, so I don't know if it'll be any different). I use a piece of plain horsebutt as a razor strop every day, it's better than any "bought" strop I have ever used, aside from horween shell (which doesn't have the longevity and is ungodly expensive).

    Anyway, give it a little time because it's got some bite to start with and you may actually notice it scratching a polished edge a little. As it breaks in, whatever is in it (silica?) will wear some and it will become slick and smooth.

    You can try a piece of smooth bovine leather (that you can probably find cheaply anywhere in the world) that's untreated other than veg. tanned for comparison - it's much softer. The point of the bare leather is to remove anything that is clinging to the edge.

    I don't use any compounds at this point, they're not necessary, but you might not find that to be the case right away. As you advance in the one stone venture, you might find yourself being more stingy (in terms of metal removal) with each sharpening, and leaning more on the stones ability to cut fine (which that stone can do, as you've seen, if you let it load a little bit).

  6. #6
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    Thanks David!


    I like what you said about being "stingy" about metal removal, puts things in perspective and helps me think of how to approach it. do you always go for a burr in that case?


    I wouldn't quite say it's like wood, but much harder than what I'm using now and quite stiff. it has no "give" in hardness, a nail scratches it.
    I'll try half of it with compound and half plain. I'll experiment with the sigma and a bare strop, working at the stone fineness.
    do you think maybe one of the new Dual-stone from Stu would cut more like an oil stone as in shallow and burnished? or maybe a spyderco ultra fine would be a good idea?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew N. Masail View Post
    Thanks David!


    I like what you said about being "stingy" about metal removal, puts things in perspective and helps me think of how to approach it. do you always go for a burr in that case?


    I wouldn't quite say it's like wood, but much harder than what I'm using now and quite stiff. it has no "give" in hardness, a nail scratches it.
    I'll try half of it with compound and half plain. I'll experiment with the sigma and a bare strop, working at the stone fineness.
    do you think maybe one of the new Dual-stone from Stu would cut more like an oil stone as in shallow and burnished? or maybe a spyderco ultra fine would be a good idea?
    With a washita, I still always get some wire edge. It's judgement from experience (that you'll get) about how big it actually needs to be given the level of wear on the iron, though.

    Yeah, the horsebutt's not quite like wood, but it's hard - really hard. Mine is on a hard wood strop, and when you tap it, it's a percussive knock because of its hardness.

    I haven't used any of the gokumyos, so I'm not sure how the dual stones go. the spyderco will go all the way from aggressive to literally not cutting at all. I think they are trickier to use than an oilstone, the washita stone once you get the hang of a clean precise grind and some consistency about how you hold an iron freehand is very fast and easy to use. It's one of those things you just get better at when you use it.

    The 1200 should be like that to some extent. If you use it half the time without compound on the strop, you should get to the point where it's not necessarily quite as sharp as compound would make it, but awfully close. It might be a bit less important if you're using the sellers method (I do not, and because of that am more protective of the geometry at the end and don't want to round anything over with something following the washita).

    I do have the 1200 and maybe will fiddle with it in the next couple of weeks. I could confirm your comments above about the king because i didn't like how it worked to follow it with the bare strop. I did use some stuff straight off of the 1200 and it wasn't as sharp as a washita, but on a washita alone that's settled in, you wouldn't be able to one stone a chisel - you'd have to grind. It's right on the doorstep of finish stones and starting to impart a hazy polish on tools.

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    Sounds like the Washita is far finer than the sigma, which probably makes it much better for use with a bare strop. the sigma will eat anything I've tried, but still leaves a fine finish for it's grit, and since it's so hard it burnishes.


    That's exactly one of the things I love about the sellers method, you can use the strop without much fear. it also seems the sellers method gets a finer finish out
    of a given stone than the hollow grind way, maybe because of the way the iron is moved over it, fast a light.


    I'm tempted to try the dual stones, the small one are very cheap, but I I'll wait until I feel that I know enough about what's going on working this way. I imagine the 1000 might be a harder version of the sigma 1.2 which would make it a very good synthetic for this that would work with all steels.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew N. Masail View Post
    That's exactly one of the things I love about the sellers method, you can use the strop without much fear. it also seems the sellers method gets a finer finish out
    of a given stone than the hollow grind way, maybe because of the way the iron is moved over it, fast a light.
    It depends (which gives the better edge). I don't get better edges with the sellers method than I do with a hollow grind, but I'm not doing what most hollow grinders do. My hollow is long and shallow (25 degrees or a few clicks less) and depending on what tool is used, a slightly rounded bevel is applied only to the edge. For chisels, it's barely steeper than the primary. Like a couple of degrees. For plane irons, it's probably more like 30 degrees (which helps to avoid chips).

    The thing that makes the sellers method work well is pretty much the loaded strop.

    But it doesn't matter too much what makes it work, it only matters that it works.

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    your right it most likely the strop..... I have a loot to experiment with

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew N. Masail View Post
    your right it most likely the strop..... I have a loot to experiment with
    Experimentation is good, especially when it leads to satisfaction with what you currently have (due to uncovering new aspects of something previously unappreciated), and even more especially, when it saves time sharpening and gives a guaranteed result!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    Experimentation is good, especially when it leads to satisfaction with what you currently have (due to uncovering new aspects of something previously unappreciated), and even more especially, when it saves time sharpening and gives a guaranteed result!
    it sure does that! that's mostly what's satisfying to me. I feel like I can sharpen almost anywhere with almost anything, at long as my pants are a good enough strop....

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