problems leveling a varnish finish

[Eric Husta]

Yes, I had to strip a table top that I hosed up trying to brush on the Arm-R-Seal. The top was dyed first with Transtint. I used KleanStrip Premium stripper and it took off the Arm-R-Seal about as fast as I could brush it on, and it took out most/all of the dye, too. If you used a pigmented stain I'm pretty sure it would take that off too. I did not sand again after I stripped, there was no need to. I just made sure I neutralized the top real well with Naptha after I got the stripper off, let that dry, then started over.

Don't give up. Arm-R-Seal is beautiful when you get it right. The streaks you are getting are not due the flatters in the product. There aren't many in the semi-gloss sheen, and they stay in suspension for hours before settling. Streaks are the result of not getting it on uniformly. The goal is to flow it on as smoothly as possible, with enough liquid so that it can self level. If you apply too little, you will definitely get streaks. If you apply enough to flow out, but then go back over it you will get streaks. Flow it on from one end to the other, leave it be, and move on to the next "row". You should be able to do a 3' x 5' table top, for example, in 4 - 5 minutes. If you can't apply it fast enough with a paper towel, use a micro fiber cloth formed into a ball with a smooth exterior. It will hold more without dripping and let you lay down a smooth coating. In either case, it really helps to pour out the Arm-R-Seal into a container large enough that you can dip into without it slowing you down - the can is too small.

John



John

John, did you apply your coats with the bus boy method and just swirl it on? The streaks surprised me because I felt, if anything, I applied too much with the foam brush. I was just daubing it out and then spreading it in one even stroke. I did overlap the edges of the rows and went back and forth once but I felt like I was moving along at a good clip.

[Scott Holmes]

Satin or semi-gloss wiping varnish settles VERY quickly. I suggest you brush 2 coats without thinning. If you are using a wiping varnish; I don't use "Arm n Seal" so I'm not sure if it's a wiping varnish or a regular poly. If it's a wiping varnish you will not get much better build than wiping varnish without the flattening agent settling in grain which may be causing your streaks.

Applying a wiping varnish with a brush is NOT the same a brushing a regular varnish coat then sanding it back. The wiping varnish is much thinner and will not act the same.

[Eric Husta]

...

The three keys to wiping succesfully are 1) wipe on very thin coats, 2) move quickly and with a light touch and don't come to 'tip off' or remove swirls, 3) be patient and prepared to do many coats.
A lot of people lack the discipline and patience to know that the quality improves with each coat, and they end up violating 1 and 2.

I know you say very thin coats and this particular product can be wiped on, but I have to say when I open the can and swirl it around it is quite thick. Have you ever thinned the product further to get a thinner coat? I was thinking of going 25% MS and giving that a shot. Would this negate the leveling ability? I have heard different theories on whether you can thin this product any more. When I flow it on with a foam brush it looks to be fairly thick to me...maybe even a bit too thick to spread "like a bus boy"?

Eric

[Prashun Patel]

I've done it both ways. It IS easier to wipe when thinned with MS; 25% is fine.

However, doing so will increase the density disparity between the suspending liquid and the flatteners. This means you increase the probability of streaks if you brush it out. If you wipe it thin, this becomes less of an issue.

[Eric Husta]

Sorry if I am resurrecting a dead thread but I'm curious if anyone has any opinions on the attached photo. These scratches appeared just from using 0000 steel wool to remove the dust. I was barely applying any pressure and the finish had dried for a few days. It seems as if every scratch is showing up and this is after two more wiped on coats. Is the finish just not thick enough to hide these scratches or are there other issues here? Granted, it takes these powerful lights to see them but something tells me they should be invisible, no?

Should I aggressively level the surface again and begin reapplying? Just strip it and start over? I'm stumped. This surface is pretty darn smooth too. Any advice would be appreciated.

Eric

table.jpg

[Steve Friedman]

Eric,

If I read your last post correctly, you applied the "final coat," waited 2 days, tried to remove the dust with 0000, and then took the picture. If that's correct, then I think the fix is simple. Get the 0000 away from your table!

With Arm-R-Seal, you leave the final coat untouched. Don't try to remove the dust. If the finish isn't what you want, scuff sand with 400 and apply another coat. But, once you apply your "final coat," don't touch the table with anything for at least 2 weeks (I think 3 or 4 are better). You need to be sure the varnish has cured before you touch it. Even then, the stock advice is to just use a brown paper bag to knock down the dust nibs. I use 4000 grit Abralon pads, but I'm sure paper bags are just as good.

By the way, if there's really that much dust after the final coat, you may want to do something to control it. For example, you can try to wait a couple of hours after sanding to apply the final coat in an attempt to let the airborne dust settle. Kick the dog, cats, and kids out of the room while the dust is settling. I have even read suggestions to turn the fan off on your HVAC. Whatever it takes to get rid of the airborne stuff before you apply the final coat.

I think you're almost there. Doesn't seem like you need to strip and re-sand.

Steve

[Eric Husta]

Thanks for taking a look Steve. The surface you are looking at is two coats of wiped on Arm-r-seal without being touched with anything in between. So those scratches are from 3 coats earlier. I applied two coats over what I thought was a smooth, clean, lightly abraded surface. It's almost like looking underneath the surface of a glass surface and seeing scratches on the other side of the glass pane. I think I am going to have to relevel and uniformly dull the surface and build it up again taking more care to avoid any sanding scratches.

[Steve Friedman]

My bad. I misunderstood. I would defer to others with more experience, but if the scratches are below the last coat, I think you have to go down to get them out. By the way, I have had success with getting back down to wood with just sanding. The sandpaper gets gummed up, but still easier in my opinion than a chemical remover. All you're really trying to do is get down far enough to get rid of the scratches. May not even need to go all the way down to bare wood.

Good luck. Just think of it as practice for your next piece.

Steve

[Prashun Patel]

before you do that, try wiping on three more coats. Don't sand any more. armrseal and poly don't need to be sanded between every coat when wiped on. Thin your armrseal 25% with MS, and wipe it on thin. I too have restarted many a surface because I didn't have the patience to put on enough coats. i am not guaranteeing this will solve your problem, but it looks very much like issues I've had before.

also, steel wool #0000 is too aggressive for denubbing. denubbing is different from leveling the surface. Denubbing is for touch, without affecting the gloss. Leveling will result in a dull or satin finish. To achieve a satin and not scratchy finish, though, you need to spend more time rubbing than you would if you are simply denubbing.

Rubbing half heartedly with too aggressive an abrasive will give you those kinds of scratches. But it is still my contention that fine enough scratches, like the ~600 ish ones from your steel wool will be hidden under enough coats of finish. It's like the diamond-in-the-glass-of water trick.

[Steve Friedman]

Prashun,

I certainly defer to your expertise, but I thought Eric said that there are 2 coats of untouched Arm-R-Seal covering the #0000 scratches. If that's the situation, how will putting more coats on fill the underlying scratches. Doesn't he need to sand "down" to the layer that has the scratches in it? I thought part of the Denny's bus boy analogy was intended to get us to make sure we applied enough varnish in each coat to fill all the scratches in the prior layer.

Still trying to learn.

Steve

[Eric Husta]

Steve,

That's kind of what I was thinking but I guess I was also wondering if maybe I was still seeing the light diffusion because the wiped on layers were too thin to cover the whole scratch in one or two coats? Prashun's diamond analogy makes sense to me. I will add a few more coats and see what happens and report back. I also think it might be time to try the razor blade method and put down the abrasives altogether.

Eric

[Prashun Patel]

When the next coat goes on, are the scratches immediately invisible only to become visible later after drying? Or are they visible even through the freshly wet surface? If they disappear then eventually they will remain invisible under enough coats of dry. Does that make sense?

Nibs from wiped coats come off easy with a paper bag or fine, fine abrasive. No need to use a razor unless you. Really mess up.

[Eric Husta]

Yes they are immediately invisible and become visible after drying so that makes perfect sense.

Thanks,

Eric

[Eric Husta]

Well Prashun was right. Subsequent coats have filled in those scratches and the top coat looks smooth with no visible scratches. My only problem now is streaking. I can't tell if thinning with MS is helping or hurting here but I am getting streaks of cloudiness that match the path of the folded shop towel. I know I have seen people run into this and I recall others suggesting the finish may be applied to thickly but I am barely dipping the rag into the finish and it doesn't seem like I could get it much thinner.

Eric

[Steve Friedman]

At least you won one battle!

Not sure what's causing the streaking, but I have had more problems applying too little than too much. I wouldn't hesitate to get the towel pretty wet as long as you don't get runs. Arm-R-Seal is supposed to even itself out. You should have plenty of coats by now. Try to get a final solid full-strength coat on, making sure the towel is always wet enough to avoid the streaking. By the way, even if it works, you can still add more. It just helps sometimes to treat each coat as if it's going to be the last one.

Good luck. I see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Steve