Built in cabinet construction questions

[Matt Day]

I'm building some built ins for our mudroom and have a few questions. The picture below shows one of the "towers" as I'm calling them, which will hold some baskets and have a small locker below - no doors and open shelving. The white part will be 3/4" plywood and the red part will be maple (approximately 3/4" x 3/4") for durability (and I have some in my shop to use up). It will all be painted white.

Questions:
1) I was planning on biscuits and screws for the carcass. I'm using Deerwood Ultimates #8 x 2" with a countersunk and predilled hole so the plywood doesn't blowout - should I still use biscuits and glue or are screws alone enough?

2) Whats the best way to attach the solid maple edgebanding? Because I'd like to make efficient use of my plywood, I'll be ripping it as close to 16" as possible since the baskets are 16" deep. I'll probably end up with 15 1/2", factor in a 1/4" recessed back, and I'll need 3/4" edgebanding to get back to 16" clear space for the baskets. I plan to make the edgebanding oversized and flush trim it to the plywood with a router. For attaching it, maybe just glue and some brad nails?

3) When should I paint? I thought about pre painting the full sheets of plywood before cutting to get a coat on easier, but then I thought about how the screw holes will then miss that first coat and may stick out. Maybe paint one side of each piece of plywood (the inside)? Will that cause the plywood to be unbalanced and bow/potato chip? Only part of one side of 2 of the 3 towers will be exposed and will be easy to paint, so maybe I should pre paint both sides?

4) Suggestions to fill the screw holes? Wood putty?

5) Suggestions to seal the plywood endgrain before painting? I was going to experiment with Zinsser BIN.

edit 6) I was planning to roll on (microfiber roller I think, need to ask S-W) some white latex paint with built-in primer since that's what I have on hand and matches part of the room. Any issues with that?

Thanks all!

[Richard Wagner]

Since you are going to paint, I would use glue and screw for carcass assembly and apply the edge trim with glue and finish nails or biscuits. I really dislike painting the inside of small cubicles like these so I would probably prepaint but you have to think this through. You do not want paint anywhere you are going to be dependent upon glue for holding power.

[Matt Day]

Good point Richard. If I were using biscuits it wouldn't matter though right? Since the biscuits cut holes and the glue is in the hole.

[Ken Krawford]

I second most everything Richard said, esp. the painting part. If you have a brad nailer, I like to attach edgebanding like this with glue and nails and then fill nail holes with epoxy. Apply edgebanding before assembling carcass since it makes sanding, etc easier. Consider dadoes on cabinet sides to receive shelves. Slap on painters tape on before painting.

[Matt Day]

Thanks guys. Is a plywood butt joint really that strong though that the glue does much? Or is it different than solid wood?

[Jamie Buxton]

Thanks guys. Is a plywood butt joint really that strong though that the glue does much? Or is it different than solid wood?

Yes, a glued butt joint between the shelf and the wall is much stronger than a similar joint in solid wood. The reason is that the lumber joint would be all end-grain. The plywood joint is half-face grain.

My standard plywood carcass construction is to use glued butt joints, and biscuits to position the parts during glue-up. I don't bother putting glue on the biscuits. I use pipe clamps to hold everything together while the glue cures. I almost never use screw heads where I have to fill them.

I'd paint the interior before glue-up. Getting a brush or a gun in there, and/or sanding, will be a bear. Mask the areas where the glue will go.

For edgebanding, I rip solid lumber to 1/8" or so, and glue it on with wood glue. I cut it wide, and trim it flush with a flush-trim router bit after the glue cures. Making the edgebanding 3/4" thick will give you headaches. Trimming it flush can be done, but it is much more of a hassle than flush-trimming 1/8" material. Or you prepare the banding to be exactly the thickness of the plywood, but then you have to glue it very precisely to the plywood, so it comes out flush.

For the back, rabbet the top, bottom, and sides, and staple the back in -- after painting the inside.

"Sealing the endgrain"? As I see it, there's no visible endgrain.

[Jamie Buxton]

Think ahead about how you're going to fasten these built-ins to the house. Just putting screws through a quarter-inch back is likely to pull the screws through the back. Many built-ins have a "nail rail", which is a 1x2 or so in the corner between the top and the back. If it is glued to both, it is strong enough that you can put screws through it. For something this tall, you may want to something similar near the bottom. Another possible spot for the top nail rail is above the cabinet; then your installation screws don't show.

If these cabinets are going into a corner, be aware that a house's corner is not ninety degrees, guaranteed.

[Myk Rian]

Although I use biscuits for things, I really prefer using dados for shelving. Much stronger than just biscuits. 1/4" is plenty deep.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Edgebanding is easier to trim flush if it's done before assembly. You can also clamp it instead of brad nailing if you want to avoid holes. Another way to do it around the rim is to miter it and apply afterwards. Trimming is made a little more difficult, but the appearance is nice.

[Lee Mims]

I feel compelled to reply to this thread since I'm currently building shelves and cabinets in my mudroom. I have completed the 8' tall x 3' wide pantry, a set of 3 cabinets (all one unit), and just completed a 36" h x 24" wide cabinet...just one more of those to go and we'll be ready for paint.

I'll address the issues I had and what I did to fix, maybe this will help.

I'm a fan of pocket holes, I typically use them without glue. When I started making cabinets years ago it allowed me to do two things:

1. Undo a side I messed up, because there wasn't glue holding it.
2. Dis-assemble a piece and make something else with it...mainly cause I couldn't make up my mind.

Are pocket holes without glue strong enough? I build a box that held a washer and dryer for 3 years, never sagged, never bowed. All pocket holes without glue.

That said, now I'm a bit more confident in myself, and I use glue quite a lot. Here's how I built my pantry.

1. Tracksaw - Ripped a sheet of plywood into 4 11.25" sections (full length).
2. Pocket Holes (Kreg Jig) the 3' sections (measured 34.5") inside the 8' sections (those full top to bottom showing). No glue here yet.
3. Decided on bottom 60% of pantry to have static shelves, top will be adjustable. 4 doors total, tops were 30", bottoms the rest of the size. Pocket holed bottom shelving, no dadoes, no nails, no glue. 3 PH per side per shelf.
4. When shelving complete on bottom, set a divider at top to break up the 3' wide section in half, added adjustable shelving to each side to give flexibility (don't want 3' wide adjustable shelves without some bracing....would imagine it would sag).
5. Laid pantry on face, cut a 1/4" backing to the right size, squared it up, glued it and 18ga stapled it to the back. Make sure to glue all the available shelves, sides, tops, bottoms, etc. The back is what keeps it square and gives it racking strength.
6. Built face frames, I like dowels...PH and biscuits are good too.
7. Attached face with no glue, using 15ga slight head finish nails (1.5" long). Plenty of shear strength, and the wood movement without the glue means it shouldn't crack over time.
8. Put in place (mounted using nailer board at time and backing).
9. Filled holes with Durhams putty (mix it yourself kind...just like it cause you can get the consistency like you want to work best).

Here's the important part. Make your wife or friend prime the thing, but prime it. The paint and primers in one are just really thick paints. Primers have a bit more adhesive properties and work better sticking to unpainted surfaces. I have completed stopped used Paint and Primers in one, I need just as many coats and don't get great finish results cause your final cost still contains a primer-ish agent.

I HATE painting small cubbies, and therefore have been trying spray guns for the past year with varying success. That is...until I found the Graco TrueCoat Plus II (make sure it's the II, it lets you adjust pressure to help with overspray). I likely sound like a commericial for this thing but I painted 5 cabinets with 2 finish coats with a 311 tip in about 2 hours, and the results are exactly what you'd expect a professional to give. The gun can shoot paint UNTHINNED (and I'm not joking...I sprayed exterior latex on my shed with this thing....that stuff is like motor oil).

It takes some practice to get good with it...but by my third try I was pretty good, and the results are just crazy good. Not to mention since it's airless it shoots nothing but paint, so painting in corners (where HVLP guns have trouble) isn't a problem at all. I even can spray ceilings in almost a 90degree position and the gun works fine.

Summary of entire post:
You construction methods seem just fine, consider the nailer strip at the top. Sounds like you are dreading painting more than anything, because why build something nice and screw it up with brush stroke marks? Consider that gun, and leave the ones you need to thin materials down to use on the shelf. I actually enjoy that part of the job now.

[Matt Day]

All, thanks for the input! I really appreciate it. I'll try to address the major points made.

I think what I'm going to plan to do is:
1) Cut all pieces to size
2) Attach edgebanding (likely with glue and brad nails or clamps), flush trim with router
3) Layout shelf locations and tape off joints
4) Paint interior 2 coats, exterior 1 coat
5) Assemble
6) Fill screw holes
7) Final Paint at exposed exterior
8) Install

As far as attaching the cabinets to the wall, I'll be building a base that I'll use to level and include nailers that the cabinets will attach to. See picture below of the entire build (please no The end "towers" will be attached to the side walls and to the top shelf, and the top shelf will be attached to the back wall. I think it will be plenty solid, and I might put a couple pan head screws with washers through the 1/4" ply backs.

I checked the wall for square/plum/drywall bows - I'm going to need some quarter round for sure in some places! I'll scribe where I can.

I wanted to spray these cabinets, but it's too cold outside and it would be a bit of a pain to setup something in the basement.

I think I'm set to go. Thanks for the input and letting me "talk it out".

[Matt Day]

Just an update on my project.

I'm finally done (sans some nail holes in the trim) and my wife and I are very happy with it. We had a bit of a delay (our son came 3 1/2 weeks early) but I got it done before my wife's maternity leave ended. It's exactly what we wanted - very function and we think it looks great.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Turned out great!

(congrats on the son also!)