plane handle configuration (new thread)

[David Weaver]

1; I don't want one,and I have other paying work to do.

Well, if you don't want to make a left handed one for pay, you could make me a right handed one for free

Double iron.

[george wilson]

I do not have any 4x4's of beechwood,and my thick maple is BURIED in the garden shed. It would at least have to be brought indoors to acclimate.

Besides,I have a very painful worn out right thumb joint from thumb picking guitars since 1952. Right now I cannot stand the shock of striking anything like a stamp or a chisel that is held in my right hand(with the necessary thumb). I dread the surgery as I hear it is painful to recover from. But,sooner or later,I will have to get it,and will have my hand in a cast for 6 weeks so I can't even cut my own food.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, I'm just kidding.

[Steve Voigt]

Then perhaps David, either you, or George or perhaps even Steve could do us all a big favor and snap a photo or two of the proper way to grip a plane with an obviously too small handle. A couple angles including top view (as seen by the woodworker) and the side view wherein you can see all the crazy angles that Steve is referring to which seem so natural and comfortable...

"Even Steven," that's what they used to call me. As in "even Steven catches the football sometimes!"
Pat, I'm not sure what you mean by "the crazy angles that Steve is referring to." I don't think I referred to any angles at all.
To be clear, my comments above didn't refer exclusively to the short handles George was talking about. And I don't think a photograph is necessary. As I said before, if you grip a Stanley or British/American style woodie tote the way I described in my previous post, you'll see that the heel of your hand doesn't even come into contact with the tote. You can bring it into contact by (1) bending your wrist or (2) squeezing your fingers tightly, but neither of those things is good practice.

[Graham Haydon]

Does anyone have scaled drawing of some 18th century planes please? I have plently of projects to do already but I would dearly like to make one and use it. I bought a £1.00 Jack Plane from UK ebay, it's a delight to use. I have no idea on it's age, perhaps someone could advise me?

Sweet Jack Plane.jpg

I have a wooden Try also but it's perhaps a 19th cent beast and feels less nimble. I have taken a look at the Old Street Tool site which is good but unless I have sizes and positions of totes there seems little point embarking on making this and not making use of the retained knowledge set into the planes.

If anyone want to see, pick fault with how I use the jack I did a short vid . I found the Try was a nuisance for clogging. It seemed wood got crinkled and jambed in the mouth, the cap iron/blade junction always seemed fine. It would work fine sometimes, perhaps someone with more experience could help me on that too. I'm not claiming to be an expert with any of this, most of my planing is done on one of these.

[Steve Voigt]

Does anyone have scaled drawing of some 18th century planes please?

Go to caleb james' blog and search around. He has a bunch.

[Graham Haydon]

Thanks Steve,

Caleb has the smoother http://kapeldesigns.blogspot.co.uk/2...ane-plans.html and jack http://kapeldesigns.blogspot.co.uk/2...lans-18th.html a Try would be nice

[george wilson]

Graham,your plane is a late one,either late 19th,or early 20th. C.. It can easily be determined by the type of treatment around the body of the plane. 18th. C. planes have nice big,bold bevels. Almost at 45 degrees. They have round top wedges,and (if the iron is original),a round top iron. Irons frequently were replaced. A lot of old time craftsmen would have 3 or 4 irons which were sharpened up in the morning,and would last all day. They got swapped,or worn out and replaced.

I'm not a collector. I buy tools to use. But,next,the bevels are tall,but much steeper. The long angles seen on your late plane are shorter,chopped off at 45º. Later,the irons get the modern tall bevel. The final edge treatment was the edges just rounded like yours is.

I don't know the time lines for these features,not being a collector. I don't usually collect dates or closely classify data like collectors do. Of course,I am the most familiar with 18th. C. types,since I've made a lot of them as toolmaker in the museum.

[Pat Barry]

To see that George is right, all you have to do is try it yourself. Assuming you are using (1) a proper (and historically correct) 3-finger grip, with index finger extended; (2) a reasonably low bench (again, as would have been used in the 18th/19 centuries); (3) keeping your wrist straight; (4)leaning forward, into the work, not back on your heels…

Assuming you are doing these things, there is no way you can concentrate the majority of force on the heel of your hand. The only way you can do it is to bend your wrist sharply, which will definitely cause pain at some point.

This all brings up the point that technique is at least 50% of the equation. A stock stanley handle used with good technique, a sharp blade, and an appropriate depth of cut, should not cause a lot of problems. Conversely, the best handle in the world will be quite painful in the hands of an inept user.

OK - I'll clarify

1) a proper (and historically correct) 3-finger grip, with index finger extended; ---- Is this really the historically correct grip or are we just guessing because thats the only way a comfortable grip can be accomplished now that people are generally bigger??
2) a reasonably low bench (again, as would have been used in the 18th/19 centuries) --- when people were shorter and lower benches therefore were better match for their physical size??
3) keeping your wrist straight --- please define straight wrist - this is where the picture would be super helpful because a straight wrist to me means my hand is oriented vertically with the heel (OK - I really mean the base of the thumb junction with the wrist) on the base of the handle. Note: I went to the gym today and spent time doing pushing exercise - lifting weights and I've got to tell you that doing a bench press or other pushing task with the force concentrated on the web of my hand was painful. On the other hand, I found the natural strong position to be with the bar basically oriented along the base of my thumb up to the wrist joint. Maybe I just learned it wrong and now that's the way I'm used to it. I've been wrong before.
4) leaning forward, into the work, not back on your heels…--- I don't disagree with this at all. That's good - now we have common ground to discuss further.

I'd still appreciate a picture from you as I requested earlier. When I get a chance and can find my camera cable I'll reciprocate

[Pat Barry]

I wanted to illustrate further to help clarify so I found and illustrated this picture.

Hand.jpg

Note - he may have been the victim of a power tool incident - maybe should have had a Sawstop - injuries depicted certainly not due to planing 10 hours per day

[David Weaver]

Does anyone have scaled drawing of some 18th century planes please? I have plently of projects to do already but I would dearly like to make one and use it. I bought a £1.00 Jack Plane from UK ebay, it's a delight to use. I have no idea on it's age, perhaps someone could advise me?

Sweet Jack Plane.jpg

I have a wooden Try also but it's perhaps a 19th cent beast and feels less nimble. I have taken a look at the Old Street Tool site which is good but unless I have sizes and positions of totes there seems little point embarking on making this and not making use of the retained knowledge set into the planes.

If anyone want to see, pick fault with how I use the jack I did a short vid . I found the Try was a nuisance for clogging. It seemed wood got crinkled and jambed in the mouth, the cap iron/blade junction always seemed fine. It would work fine sometimes, perhaps someone with more experience could help me on that too. I'm not claiming to be an expert with any of this, most of my planing is done on one of these.

Can't complain about a quid.

Where is the try plane clogging? is it at the corners at the tips of the wedge or around there somewhere at the bottom of the abutments?

If it's not just at the corners of the wedge, but in the middle, too without planing at the edge, it could be that the escapement needs work.

[Pat Barry]

One additional photo that I hope conveys my point:
Hand2.jpg
Again, this is not a hand injury caused by handplaning using modern or 18th C methods.

[David Weaver]

How did you go from the base of the hand (in your earlier post you advocated the base of the hand - the part you'd use if you were trying to hand hammer a joint shut) to the part from the web to the base of the thumb that I mentioned earlier?

The web of your hand is also engaged in planing, heavily. If you think it's not, take the horn off of a plane, or better yet, leave a nub of a horn, and watch what happens.

[george wilson]

Pat,what conceivable relationship do you see between a painful accident and pushing a plane? And,how many pounds do you think it takes to push a plane Vs trying to lift weights with the web of the thumb? I am sorry,I really fail to see how these correlate.

Yes,cutting the heck out of ANY part of your hand will hurt like crazy. That is for sure. But,developing numbing of your hands could cause starvation if you were a joiner in the old days,and even into the earlier 20th. C.,before workmen had some legal rights and before social security came along. Life was cruel,and every day,you had to work for barely enough to scrape by.

[Ryan Mooney]

I wanted to illustrate further to help clarify so I found and illustrated this picture.

Hand.jpg

Note - he may have been the victim of a power tool incident - maybe should have had a Sawstop - injuries depicted certainly not due to planing 10 hours per day

I find this discussion interesting because I have a reasonably rough case of carpal tunnel from years of computer work (occupational hazard). I was playing around with some play dough (which I use as a hand exerciser at work to keep the carpal tunnel at a dull roar) on the edge of the desk so see where I could "feel" it (its in full roar this week so its a "good" time to test I guess.. sigh). I'm going to claim somewhere near the upper/middle of the pad with my hand straight (in line) with my wrist was the most comfortable (or at least caused the least pain ). Having the fingers extended definitely helped (it seems to put less strain on the carpal tunnel). I think there may be some definitional hand waving about where the pad ends and the web begins.

Thanks to all for the links to some more plane design links/pictures. A woody Jack is on my TODO list so I'm filing these away for reference.