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Thread: hardwood floor making process and tools

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim German View Post
    Lastly, that jointer/planer that you linked has a pretty small table to be jointing 7' boards. Depending on how rough the lumber you get is, you'll also be making a bunch of passes for each board. .
    Yes, That was my first thought. How strong are you? This will be a lot of hard work, but you can feel what it's like by this test. Set a 37" long chunk of scrap at the same height as that jointer. This represents that jointer's 37"length. Now take a 7' oak board. Lift it to up and rest 18"of the oak boards face flat on half of the simulated jointer tables. Now push down on that 18" while you support the remaining 66'' that hangs off the table. The 7' of oak is only fully supported by the jointer tables for about 1/3 of it's pass over them. That's why big jointers with long tables are best for this. A planer sled would be less effort.
    It might be cheaper and a lot less work to order your oak S4S (surfaced on both faces and both edges).

    This flooring can be made with minimal machinery, but it will be slow going. Only you can say if it's worth it. Heck, there's guys here in the neander forum who prepare rough stock with hand tools only!
    Last edited by Andrew Joiner; 03-13-2014 at 1:08 PM.
    "Whether you think you can, or you think you can’t - you’re right."
    - Henry Ford

  2. #17
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    I think that the pricing will be in his favor when it comes to big plank, that's hard to find in good supply and also somewhat expensive. I think it's lost on red oak, personally, would do white oak or white ash. Soap finish.

    I think I would split the difference here, I would consider buying what you can in regard to the lumber, but would get a quote for the machine work and finishing from a local mill. I would ask for best pricing on the wood from whoever you're buying it from, if this is a whole-house sized project they can probably work with you on it.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  3. #18
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    I agree that if I decide to do so much floor I should consider a more expensive grade to maximize the effort. For now I selected red oak because it is readily available, I have not searched for alternatives and I will do that.
    Keeping the discussion on red oak, the most expensive board would be a 1x10x8 for $8.33 a piece, the cheapest 1x6x8 sold for $3.20. This means 1000 Sq ft material would cost about $1000 ($800 if I had to choose only 1x6x8 and $1250 if I use only 1x10x8).
    It is not a lot of money for all that floor and such large pieces, unless my math is wrong.
    At least I have not found yet places selling such large boards already finished at good prices. If I do not get crazy in the process and I can complete 3000 sq ft for $3000 in material don’t you think is something to consider? We are talking about easily a $10.000 saving, cost of a new machines for the shop and change. I also selected large boards because in a way imperfections such as gap between the boards is seen more typical also on god installations while a mediocre work on 2 ½ boards would really show.

    thank you

  4. #19
    Joseph, please do not take this the wrong way: Your math, above, is fine and dandy but it all is contingent on the assumption that nothing goes wrong with the machinery during your project and also, I don't see where the cost of tooling is factored in there for the shaper, jointer, planer, etc. In other words, you would be 100% correct if the this whole project existed only on paper. Also, your logic operates on one other big assumption: That your time is worth nothing. In other words, the fact that you have it boiling down to "$3,000' sq. for $3K" assumes that you are a 100% skilled tradesman, with absolutely nothing else you could or might be doing that would be of value, time-wise. Again, I am not saying this to pick your logic apart, just speaking from personal experience. I can give you two real-world examples, from both ends of the picture.

    First, I have a customer who who purchased a short-stroke (less than 8') sliding table saw from me a while back. A pro guy, doing lots of casework. He explained to me that he had figured out work-arounds for not being able to rip a full 4x8 panel through the blade, it was going to save him money, it was all thought out, etc. Well, he called me less than a year later, regretting that he had not purchased a machine which could indeed do full 4x8 sheets because he ran into many "unforseen" complications in workflow. Point being that things rarely work out in an "ideal way" when we are trying out new projects for the first time. He bought a second machine from me at that point, so ended up losing money on the plan.

    Second, my own experience. I rebuilt the front end on my wife's 4Runner a couple of years ago. I enjoy wrenching and am good at it, so my logic was like yours: "Do it myself and save some money". Well, I got the 4Runner back together, dropped it off at the shop for an alignment and the manager calls me. "There's a problem..." Turns out that one of the brand-new wheel bearings I paid the local machine shop top press in, they more than likely tweaked it during the pressing and ruined it. It wasn't my fault but it was absolutely my problem. So, I had the choice to either rip the whole front end apart again, myself, then argue with the machine shop about who was actually to blame, all the while being tied up with another 8-hour project under the vehicle in the middle of a hot summer. Or, I could just pay the shop to pull it all apart and put in a fresh bearing of their own, which is what I ended up doing. So, I spent $1,000 by trying to save $1,000, all through no fault of my own and still was out several days of my time in the process.

    Anyway, what I am trying to say is that everything would be perfect if each of our projects existed only in a vacuum. I hope this makes sense.

    Erik Loza
    Minimax USA
    Last edited by Erik Loza; 03-13-2014 at 5:41 PM.

  5. #20
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    Just to make sure we are on the same page as I try to talk you back towards the light.......

    First post you said raw boards, by which I understood rough lumber, which typically comes random widths....lots of waste, lots of bow, lots of defects, potential for 30%-40% waste but lower price per BF. Now you are citing prices for 1X6 and 1X10 material, which is dimensioned lumber. Different product entirely. You will never get 6" floor boards from 1X6, and you will never get 8' yield form 8' lumber, or almost never. Are you buying dimensioned lumber at a home center? If so the prices you have listed are more than likely per lineal foot prices. If not please post location so others may go and rob the fool selling at those prices. Typically whole sale price on FAS (i.e. top quality clear) red oak is in the $1.25-$1.50 per BF range, and thats kiln dried, random widths, possibly sorted for length somewhat, rough. You may find small local operations that have low over head come in lower, but even your most bumped on the head high on chain saw fumes red kneck sawyer these days has a smart phone and can track the average wholesale BF price in their area, and few like to sell much cheaper than market. You listed $3.20 for a 1X6X8, which is less than $1/BF for dimensioned material.....that is a steal, sounds too good to be true....so what is that source and are you sure of that price?

    Moving along, if you get a 1X6, it has a 5.5" face, you need to remove at least 1/16" from each edge during shaping plus you have a 1/4" tongue.....so if all works well you will get a 5" face from a 1X6. And if all goes well you may get 7' from an 8' board once checks and snipe are removed during defecting/cross cutting. Keep your face yield in mind when pricing and sourcing lumber.

    Around here I'm seeing around $2/BF for hit and missed red oak, rough edges, random widths, to the trade. A bit better on quantity at what is essentially a whole sale level. Lets call your waste 25% to be generous form rough to finished widths and lengths. So you need 3800BF to do 3000 SF, at $2/BF, I see your materials cost around $6000. You might do better if you can buy true whole sale, but most outfits that sell by the mil board foot (thats lumber speak for selling in thousand BF quantities) want you to have a fork lift at off load, plus you pay freight, typical $500-$800 depending on your location. If you buy from a typical home center count on a price closer to $6/BF when all is said and done.


    So while I can't say for sure your math is off....it sure smells funny. We are both in New England, lumber markets are similar, should I be driving to RI to buy lumber?

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by JOSEPH RESTA View Post
    I agree that if I decide to do so much floor I should consider a more expensive grade to maximize the effort. For now I selected red oak because it is readily available, I have not searched for alternatives and I will do that.
    Keeping the discussion on red oak, the most expensive board would be a 1x10x8 for $8.33 a piece, the cheapest 1x6x8 sold for $3.20. This means 1000 Sq ft material would cost about $1000 ($800 if I had to choose only 1x6x8 and $1250 if I use only 1x10x8).
    It is not a lot of money for all that floor and such large pieces, unless my math is wrong.
    At least I have not found yet places selling such large boards already finished at good prices. If I do not get crazy in the process and I can complete 3000 sq ft for $3000 in material don’t you think is something to consider? We are talking about easily a $10.000 saving, cost of a new machines for the shop and change. I also selected large boards because in a way imperfections such as gap between the boards is seen more typical also on god installations while a mediocre work on 2 ½ boards would really show.

    thank you
    Peter is being very generous with his numbers above. While of course you can clarify your numbers, I think your numbers are WAY WAY low.

    Our numbers for kiln dried red oak are in the vicinity of what Peter posted however I would be shocked to see the yield he mentioned. I would guess the post stating 50% loss may be a bit steep but 25% seems very optimistic to me.

    There is no doubt about it, going about this in the way your mentioning and with the equipment youve outline, your going to lose your shirt and likely wind up with a bunch of firewood or a very "creative" floor that cost you dearly.

    As Erik has stated.. What about tooling? Sharpening? and so on? For this quantity it wouldnt be unreasonable to have $1000 in tooling alone for your shaper.

    Do yourself a favor, dont lie to yourslef, sit down with a pencil and paper, and figure out every single cost, and apply a waste factor of 40% to be safe. So if you are going to mill 1000 square feet of material you will need 1400' (I bet you still will be short). This can all be done with a pen and paper before you make the mistake.

  7. #22
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    edit - well, it looks like about 4 of us were all composing the same basic response at the same time

    At first thought I was going to delete this, but I figure I'll leave it up just in case

    Not trying to discourage you so much as to warn you what you're in for. As others have said, you're not going to save much if anything on this endeavor. There's no way you're going to get 3000sf of finished product out of $3000 worth of wood even if you start with the 1X6X8 material. Unless you're getting hand selected, 100% defect free material you'll need to plan on 25% or more waste, probably more than that and that's before installation which will take another 10%-15% if you're really careful. And that’s just the materials piece of the pie.

    Next problem you're going to run into is you're machines; the ones you have listed are hobby level machines at best. You really can't expect them to do commercial duty and survive to the end. Seriously, you'll need at least some light duty industrial stuff if you even consider this. The 40" tables (20" on each side) on the jointer/planer are too short to reasonably flatten 8' boards same goes for edging. Not to mention you'll need a feeder (1hp) to feed that much rough lumber through it. Doing that much by hand would just plain be extreme punishment.

    You'll probably need to send the majority of those 8' boards over the jointer twice so you're up to 1500lf over the jointer to flatten. Add in a couple more passes to edge and you're up to about 3,000lf. Next you're on to planning; same drill, 3-5 trips through to get down to you're 3/4" target, maybe more. Oh, and by the way, as mentioned before, you're going to be up to you're armpits in chips at this point. Waste management is going to be a big concern about now.

    Another thought; what's you're tooling plan? Just jointing and planning you're up to about 6,800lf over those knives. That poor little hobby duty jointer/planner was never designed for that kind of abuse and the knives sure won't come even close to making it. Honestly I'd be surprised if you even get 1000sf out of a set of knifes so figure the price of new knives X somewhere about 6 changes or so.

    And that’s all before you can even think about straight lining. Same deal, you’ll want a feeder for the TS for this too, hand feeding that much isn’t really an option but you could I guess if you’re up for the workout.

    Next up profiling. The back relief is more than just a couple of saw kerfs. For 6” wide material you’ll need bare minimum 3” molding head running profile knifes if you send you’re pieces though twice. Once through and flip it end for end and back through again to hit the other side. A 3” molding head will need at least a 1” spindle, 1 1/4” would be much better. The 1.5hp griz is only ½- ¾“ and I won’t even mention that little 1/4hp feeder being way under powered. That’s 2 trips though and another for sizing and T&G and you’re up to about 3,000lf there also. And that’s before you square then ends and match if you’re going that route, before you can even think about laying the first board. Oh, and same deal with shaper cutters as with the jointer/planner knifes... a set aint going to get you through without some sharpening

    If you’re still game and still thinking about moving forward, I’d give you one last thought. Do yourself a huge favor and stick with a single width and I’d highly recommend 6” or whatever max you can get out of you’re materials after straight lining it. You got a ton of work with just one setup. Changing setups over and over is going to be a major pita.

    Mike
    Last edited by M Toupin; 03-13-2014 at 6:50 PM.

  8. #23
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    My numbers above were very generous.....waste is more likely higher than 25% for sure, even on 1X material, where if a board you pick doesn't work out it may not make anything. Add to your equation the cost of the logosol you purchase when all your original equipment bites the dust half way through the huge pile of wood........



    http://www.logosol.us/planers/sh410/

  9. #24
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    I made the comment about the 50% waste and in my case I was trying to mill boards with out cutting some of the defects out like nasty knots. It all looked good during the skip planing portion but after letting it sticker for a while I saw a whole different picture LOL

    As far as tooling, the tongue and groove profile I was using it was good for about 1200 linear feet. I went thru 3 sets. I was getting from a place in Long Island for around 200.00 if I recall correctly.

    Hats off to ya if you decide to plow thru.

  10. #25
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    I build stuff for a living- 41 years now. I have accumulated at least a couple hundred k of tools and equipment. When I need flooring, I buy it almost always, unless the call is for something that can't normally be bought.

    An old builder told me, a long time ago, "You can build something real fast in your head.". It's always a game of looking for a better way. Let us know how it works out for you. You may enjoy the process.

  11. #26
    So, how long will you store this wood in your shop before you work on it? Do you have a place for 3000 sq. feet of wood, or will you purchase/mill/install as you go? Remember, as you joint/plane/rip your rough cut into floor boards, the insides are now newly exposed to the atmosphere, and are likely to warp, at least some. This can be managed in certain ways on smaller projects and, to a certain extent, a warped board can be forced into place with your flooring nailer. But, you may want to heed the phrase "to a certain extent"; warpage of many boards could render your investment to be worth little more than a 3000 sq. foot x 3/4" thick pile of firewood.

    From all of the above comments, looks like there are many potential failure modes to be navigated; no doubt, many others abound that have not yet been identified on this forum. Good luck. If you succeed, please post pics. Regardless, again, best of luck. You will need it.

  12. #27
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    I'm a man of few words, so I will say it in four words; IT'S A STUPID IDEA.
    Richard

  13. #28
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    Peter and all,
    this weekend I will step for the first time in a wood mill and understand a bit more of what I am facing here. The prices I mentioned were derived by these numbers posted on the local mill website. I assume they are for rough wood to be surfaced on all sides. If I did not get confused with the concept of BF and Sq Ft conversion, the number for "theoretical" rough wood needed are correct. i.e $1250 for 1000 Sq Ft with a 1x10x8.
    I did not anticipate such large scrap amount to be honest, thinking that oak does not have as much knots or defects as in pine and I though that areas I cut with the miter saw could be in part reused as short ones. I thank the experts in the forum pointed this out 30-50% is really a lot.

    OAK PRICE SHEET PRICE PER BOARD FOOT
    --------8----10---12---14---16
    1 X 4 0.80 0.80 0.80 0.90 1.00
    1 X 6 0.80 0.80 0.80 0.90 1.00
    1 X 8 0.90 0.90 0.90 1.00 1.10
    1 X 10 1.25 1.25 1.25 1.35 1.45
    1 X 12 1.25 1.25 1.25 1.35 1.45

  14. #29
    Joe,

    Googling your prices, I see that you're getting your quotes from James Thompson Native Hardwoods. That seems awfully cheap. After looking at their website, I'll throw in a guess as to why. I didn't see anywhere on their website that mentioned that the rough lumber you are referring to is dried. I gather that you're fairly new to woodworking judging by things you said in your posts, so you may not have picked up on that, or thought to ask. You can verify it with them as to whether or not it is dried, but know that you cannot make hardwood flooring for a house out of non-dried lumber. It needs to be either kiln-dried which will jack up your prices more in line with what others were saying, or it needs to be air-dried. I've never done the air-drying thing myself, so I'll let others with more expertise in this field chime in, but I'm guessing that you'd have to find a place to sticker, store, and end-seal your 4000+ board feet of lumber for a year or more before you can begin working with it.

    There's usually a reason that things are cheap.

    Have you given any thought to finishing? Judging by your posts, it kinda sounded like you might be planning on sanding/finishing after the the floor was put in, versus pre-finishing. They both have their pros and cons, but either way, you're going to make a lot of dust, require a lot of space, and you have to ask yourself how your finishing skills are. It'd be a tough job to match the surface finish of factory-finished lumber if you don't have a lot of experience in this area. I've seen people build beautiful furniture only to destroy it the minute they take a brush, pad, roller or a spray gun to it.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Wolf View Post
    I'm a man of few words, so I will say it in four words; IT'S A STUPID IDEA.
    LOL..........I agree, I'm in the middle of making 300SF of flooring and it's a lot of work...........Regards, Rod.

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