Using Transtint dye - is this regimen ok?

[Frederick Skelly]

Good evening. Im coloring poplar. Ive read a bunch from the archives. Ive tried a few test pieces. Before I do the real project, I wanted to confirm Im not doing anything foolish and ask a few questions. Id sure appreciate your advice.

1) I disolved the transint red mahoany in rubbing alcohol. (Instructions said use denatured alcohol, but I didnt have any for the test parts so I used rubbing alcohol. Does it matter?

2) I got a blotchy suface. I let it dry. Tried two different things. On the first test part, I put minwax cherry gel stain directly over the dye - got a lovely shade of furniture store cherry red. I did not wipe the stain off - I let it dry like a paint. Great color. Covered the blotching. Second test piece - put the dye on, then put shellac on, then gel stain. Got a deeper color - not sure its worth the extra step. Are either of these methods ok, or is one noticably better? (Ill put a clear poly over the two test parts tomorrow, as a topcoat.)

3) The dye raised the grain and Id like to sand it lightly. Is that going to scratch up the color? I dont think so, but wanted to ask. Also, would the denatured alcohol raise this grain - maybe thats the culprit?

Thanks guys!
Fred

[Tom McMahon]

Using stain like a paint can cause an excess load of pigment on the surface with inadequate binder which can cause adhesion failure of the top coat. Whether or not it will be a problem will depend on how much binder is in the gel stain, how much you leave on the surface and what you use for the top coat. Poly is already prone to adhesion problems and adhesion problems don't necessarily show up right away.

[Prashun Patel]

Dye followed by stain is a great regimen. It's ok to skip the shellac if you're getting the effect you want. Sometimes, applying a finish over transtint can cause it to lift because transtint is so soluble in many different solvents.

You don't have to wipe off gel stain as thoroughly as oil stain, but you shouldn't lay it on thick like paint; there's a risk it won't dry properly. If you want it opaque, then apply multiple coats. Of course, if you don't allow enough drying between coats, the subsequent coats of gel stain can cause the first coats to lift a little.

As for the grain raising, there are a number of ways to deal with it. I've done all:

1) pre-raise the grain with water before the dye step.
2) use DNA. Rubbing alcohol contains a good amount of water, which contributes to grain raising. DNA won't stop the grain from raising, but will reduce it.
3) Ignore it altogether and sand it after the first couple top coat layers are on.
4) (my pref): sand very lightly after the dye. It's possible to be gentle enough to leave the dye in tact, but firm enough to smooth the grain. At any rate, any minor lifting from this step will be masked by the gel stain.

One more thing to consider: if you are applying transtint in rubbing alcohol by hand (vs spraying) your 'blotching' may in fact be streaking.

If you have access to spray equipment, I highly suggest you spray the dye on (but use a flashier solvent like ethanol or acetone - be safe). You will be amazed at the control and evenness of color you can achieve. It's fast too; no waiting for drying.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks Tom, Prashun. I probably did put the gel on too thick because I did not wipe it off at all - I just let it lay there and dry. Ill try to brush more lightly and see. Perhaps I should plan on clear shellac as the top coat for adhesion sake.

Alas, I dont have spray equipment. Theres just nowhere I could use it without getting overspray on things I dont want. Even a good "airless" gun wont work in my shop.

Thanks for your help!
Fred

[Steve Schoene]

Alcohol dries very quickly, making application of alcohol dissolved dye tricky, since once it has dried on the surface, a second pass over that place can leave a darker area. If you don't have spray equipment water is the much preferred solvent. It will work with TransTint, though you do have to be careful with your top coat not to redissolve the dye when you apply the topcoat by hand. Shellac won't do, since the alcohol will dissolve the dye, neither will waterborne finishes. Old based finishes ought to work OK.

Since you are still in test mode (congratulations) I would put aside the TransTint and obtain a powdered water soluble dye. With that you have lots of working time, and have many more top coats that won't lift the dye. Apply the water mixed dye very generously--I use a sponge--flooding it on, starting at the bottom and working up. Use the same sponge wrung out to remove any puddles of dye that remain on the surface. Flooding on the dye reduces blotching on woods that tend to blotch, like maple, and it means the intensity of the color depends on how strong you mixed the dye, not on how carefully or precisely to applied it.

Gel stain is fine over the dye, but you need to apply it, AND, then wipe off excess. That does two things, it prevents adhesion problems as mentioned above, and it also means that the results do not depend significantly on the precision of your application. Besides, if you don't wipe off pigmented stain, including gel stain, you really obscure the grain of the wood and might as well have used paint grade wood and actually painted it.

[Prashun Patel]

If you're interested in the powdered dyes, I suggest you check out WD Lockwood. They have a cool sample set that allows you to pick several colors. A little makes a LOT of product, and you can mix any/all of them to really dial into the specific look you're looking for. It's more work, but if you have the patience for it, it's a wonderful way to go.

[John TenEyck]

I found, surprisingly, that I get less blotching with water than DNA when using Transtint. Applied the same way the DNA diluent was always the one to blotch whereas the water one most often would not. Neither blotched on nice straight grained wood - I'm talking about problem children like poplar, maple, etc.

I pretty much got rid of blotching problems once I started spraying on dyes. Too bad you don't have spray equipment. It is such a game changer when it comes to finishing.

So with that in mind, I think Steve's got it right. Go to a water soluble only dye, and flood it on. You can apply clear water only first, let that dry, and then sand to remove the raised grain, or you can apply the dye at lower concentration, then sand that when it's dry, and then dye it again. Same amount of work either way. In my experience, you can greatly reduce the amount of grain that gets raised by sanding to at least 325 grit first.

Good luck.

John

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks guys! Ill try these ideas on some more scrap. Im not in a hurry to put a finish on here and Im learning a lot about coloring wood. (I usually use tung oil finish.) I appreciate your help.
Fred

[Jim Neeley]

Frederick,

If you aren't in a hurry I suggest trying an approach that worked well for me using TransTint on red oak.

My bride wanted the color of the coffee table my son and I were making to match the existing furniture. My plan was to use a thinned wipe-on poly to give it water resistance without getting too thick. Additionally, I was trying to do this in the winter, when it was around zero outside (where I had to spray the dye). Oh yes, and it was my first *real* HVLP spraying job, so I was a bit nervous.

I added a small amount of TransTint to a sprayer of denatured alcohol and used it to spray. It was so dilute that it took me about a half-dozen coats (letting it dry in between) to "sneak up" on the color I wanted. As a side benefit, the multiple light coats masked any unevenness in my spraying since any thick/thin areas would be in different places each coat.

I then applied a coat of shellac to seal it, let it dray and wiped on the poly. It looks good, my bride loves it and it's held up well for 10 years. Life couldn't be better!! :-)

Jim

[Steve Schoene]

Your approach can work well, but is a fair bit of work having to spray so many times. It's also a bit of a challenge knowing how many applications of dye to make since the dye only shows the approximate final color for the short time that it is still wet. Personally I prefer using the flood on approach with water soluble powdered dye. I use a sponge for application and start at the bottom of the object, applying ample dye so the wood is thoroughly wet. That assures that the concentration of the dye mix is what determines the intensity of color not how evenly I apply it, since application just has to saturate everywhere. Too much is one space and it just runs off. Too little and it will look dry. Just wring out the sponge and wipe up any puddles. If you got things too dark just use the sponge dampened with clear water to wipe off some of the dye. If it is totally, horribly wrong, dilute some chlorine bleach and use it to remove the bulk of the color.