Rough Water Stone Suggestions

[Steve Kang]

Hello, I'm looking for a few "rough" stones to round out my 1200/6000/13000 set from Stu. I've had to use the 1200 to reestablish a bevel a few times and it has taken forever. I'd appreciate suggestions for stones carried by either Stu or Lee Valley. Also, If anyone has experience with the cerax 320 or sigma 400, please feel free to share your thoughts.

[Jim Sevey]

I use a DMT diamond plate. I think it is about 500 or so. Very fast and then I go to the 1200. I also use the DMT to flatten my water stones. Hope this helps.

[Steven J Corpstein]

I've also got that set of stones and find that using 80 grit sandpaper is way faster and controlled when stuck down to some float glass or a cheap granite plate. You can purchase rolls of PSA 80 grit fairly reasonable and the plus is you don't need to flatten it all of the time.

[Steve Friedman]

Also, If anyone has experience with the cerax 320 or sigma 400, please feel free to share your thoughts.

Yes. Love them both for different reasons. I use 3M Gold PSA sandpaper on granite to flatten backs, repair edges, and establish primary bevels. I start at 80 grit and end at 280 or 400.

For bevels, my next step is the Cerax 320. Very aggressive stone and cuts faster than you can imagine. It's like you can feel the steel abrading. Needs lots of water and needs to be flattened often, but it is the fastest cutting water stone I have ever tried, except for the Sigma 120. But the Sigma 120 has problems. The scratches are massive and it clogs very easily if you don't keep it soaking wet. You near carbide grit to clear the clogs. I got the Cerax before Stu had it available in the 1" thick version. Mine is 2", but I'm fine with that.

The Sigma 400 is a different animal. It is very hard and really intended as a back flattening stone. Not even close to being as aggressive as the Cerax 320 - the "grit" numbers are misleading. It's not like the difference between 320 and 400 grit paper.

So, I use both stones and love them both for different reasons.

One caution. The Sigma 400 is hard, which also makes it notoriously hard to flatten. There were also several folks who felt that it was very hard on the Atoma #400 diamond plate. So, I bought a #140 Atoma diamond plate just to flatten the Sigma 400 stone. Glad I did. It flattens the stone quickly AND (in my opinion) leaves a more abrasive surface than when the Sigma 400 is flattened with the #400 Atoma plate.

Not sure if it's necessary, but I also use the Atoma #140 to flatten the Cerax. It makes flattening a breeze - much quicker than with the Atoma #140. I think it also gives the Cerax more "bite" - not that it needs it.

Theoretically, you should be able to go from 400 sandpaper directly to a 1000 grit stone. But, I had problems with it because the water stone and granite plate didn't seem to agree on the definition of flat. It was just taking too long. Transitioning from sandpaper to water stones at a lower grit has really saved me a ton of time.

Lots of ways to get to sharp. This one works for me.

Steve

[Casey Gooding]

I would recommend NOT getting anything coarser than 800. They are too soft and wear away quickly.

[David Weaver]

I'd suggest the same as casey - I've never used a waterstone in those grit ranges that I liked much. if you want a stone to use functionally as a grinder, get a medium crystolon stone. Stu's got some variation of that with the sigma power 120 or whatever it is (that may be the same as a crystolon coarse).

[Curt Putnam]

Not sure why I did it, but I bought a DMT 100 grit stone from LV. Not used it much yet but it does remove steel, right now. If you are comfortable with power, I always suggest that one use power in the < 1000 grit range. I now have diamond in 100, 400 and 1200 grits. I've just used the sequence on a Sorby chisel that I think I overheated with a Worksharp. We'll see if I got past the damage.

[Noah Wagener]

Fyi, On Stu's site it says the the coarse Sigma I stones are actually harder than the fine ones so maybe they resist dishing better than most.

[Winton Applegate]

Is this a river rafting related question ?

I've never attempted sharpening while running rapids.
Could be a whole 'nuther category of Neander.
Hmmmm

[Matthew N. Masail]

I think on this forum I found this, and saved it for referance:

The Shapton #120 is similar to the King you have, soft and very friable. Works well enough, but it won't last long.


The Shapton #220 is too hard to be effective with anything hard unless you raise a slurry first. Even then, I'm not a fan. It just doesn't work.


Shapton GS #120 is again, too hard. It's the right stuff, but too hard and won't cut properly on anything really hard. Normal steel, it'll probably be ok but I've not got the temperament to deal with stones that need excessive attention. It'll be ok for knives, maybe.


Shapton GS #320 isn't bad, but it's thin and won't last long.


Shapton GS #500 is pretty good, but it's also thin and won't last long.


Suehiro Cerax #300 is very fast, good dish resistance, cheap and BIG.


Suehiro Gokumyo-Ryu #300 is dual density. One side is a softer version of the other, hard side. Very fast, works with everything well. The hard side doesn't dish and works very well to clean up after the soft side. Because it covers both bases, it's not compromised but it's seriously expensive.


Sigma #120 is a monster, but it's also very coarse and not ideal for blade backs. Grinding bevels, it's good.


Sigma Select II #240 is rather soft, very fast but it's slightly harder than most in this grit range and much better for it.


Sigma #400 works very well for both bevel and blade backs. Doesn't dish very much, isn't the fastest but can be made to work faster if needed and easily.


Beston #500 isn't bad but it's a very 'dry' feeling stone. It's not bad, but I'm not a fan.


Naniwa Superstone #220 is too slow and soft. Just not good enough, but if you got stuck with one it'll work. Not recommended.


Naniwa Chosera #400 is very smooth, works well enough but is outclassed by half the other stones mentioned.


King #300 is very hard, but with slurry on it (need to create it) it works well and isn't too expensive. Good for blade backs, less so for bevels and rehabbing.


Anything else I have is either not commercially available and good or really substandard and I won't give them a mention.


What's I've written there is a list of what I have and have used, and is written about because it's been mentioned or because they're good.


Sergey, good luck with that stone.


Stu.

[Noah Wagener]

I just bought a piece of sandstone flagstone from the Ferengui and I am pretty impressed. I ground a Koyamaichi chisel from 43 down to like 28 pretty quickly. And it was the dovetail/shinogi profile but it did not dig in to the stone at all. Whenever i accidentally lower a normal flattop chisel on even a finish stone it digs in. I was also having no luck lapping some kind of Arkansas and this has sped up the process. I do not understand how those stones ever get dished as they are so hard to flatten.

Does anyone know why a Koyamaichi paring chisel would come at over 40 degrees? It is tiny (3mm) so maybe that is why?

The 12" x 18 " stone was 6 dollars.

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I think i also have one of those Crystolon stones that David recommends and it was screaming fast. But i lapped it with water and now only the dish that i did not get down to has that grab. It felt like a block of 80 grit sandpaper when i got it despite being so glossed smoothed with swarf that i thought it might be a black Ark.

It seems that the problem with coarse stones is that either they can not stay flat or the diamond ones dull, quickly in my case. Does anyone use an Atoma to lap out pits or regrind?

[David Weaver]

Yeah, crystolon stones need to be used with a medium-light oil like a mineral oil, and they work best if you're honing something where you're just working a bevel (they are death to a knife edge too, they remove the knife edge fast).

Flatten backs on them and they fill with their own swarf (which will come out with bevel work if mineral oil is used).

The chosera 400 gets beat up a lot, but I think it's actually a fantastic stone. Its fault is that chosera has made it harder and finer than most of the coarse stones and it works that way. It's not a great grinder, more of a great stone to use on something like a japanese iron before a 1000 grit stone. But it falls then into the same category as a lot of sub-1000 stones - you just don't use them that much if you are keeping up with your tools.

Loose diamonds or aluminum oxide paper off of a PSA stick down roll are still the two best ways to lap the back of an iron, short of one that actually needs a belt grinder (and at that point, it's debatable whether or not you should just throw the iron away, because the belt grinder will change the thickness of the iron significantly as you remove pits).

I've used the atoma to prepare backs of tools - it's good if they are fairly close to flat already (so nothing heavily pitted) and especially if they are something extremely hard or made of HSS (where a stone will typically struggle on a wide flat surface).