"I am a woodshop"

[Brian Elfert]

Honestly. You're not serious are you?

Yes, I'm serious. How many openings are there for people to work in an old fashioned wood shop and make things on table saws, jointers, planers, and the like? There is a place near where I live where they make custom things from wood, but a lot of cutting is done on their CNC router. I believe they will make cabinets, but they don't make cabinet doors. They just order them from a place that specializes in cabinet doors. I had them cut some plywood for me once as I needed higher precision than I thought I could achieve with my tools.

I don't believe that taking wood shop would help me be a carpenter or anything like that. We didn't learn how to build houses. I loved wood shop, but we never built any big projects as a class like a grandfather clock or some other big project.

[Brian Elfert]

Wood shop was considered to be a really easy class to get a good grade. I took wood shop in 12th grade and a couple of guys that failed to graduate the previous spring took the class to get easy credits so they could graduate. The teacher we had was great and basically taught just drafting and shop class. I don't remember him teaching any other classes.

[Mark Bolton]

In my high school, it prepared a lot of the student athletes to be academically eligible whereas they wouldn't have been in more academic classes.

Our shop class and industrial arts classes were a place for teachers who didn't want to do much, or a place to park a football coach so they would stick around. We had two years of required industrial arts, I don't remember any of them. I have no clue if our school shops are still open, many of those around here have been sold.

In terms of cabinet making places around here, I worked in a very large corporate factory in the 1990s and the radial arm and bandsaw were used only to cut cabinet corner braces, and only one person out of 500 ever used them to do that. The rest of the stuff in the factory was automated. A stack of panels went into some CNC machine the size of a house and out of the other end came panels (sides, backs, bottoms and tops) cut, literally in order of the order tags for cabinets. That was nearly 20 years ago now.

The only people in the factory who did something that resembled shop were the maintenance men, but most of the time the maintenance men changed bits on machines, etc. If any of the larger equipment went down, it required outside expertise to get it back online.

If I wanted to learn to do something similar to wood shop, I'd apprentice with someone who has a business - which really means more like offering to be minimum wage help if they have enough work to do that, and see if they'd take you on. The prospect of what is now terminally a $15 an hour job with the promise of buying a business (where you would then end up above $15 an hour) as someone retires at *very great risk* and on an after tax basis doesn't seem very attractive.

I guess I look at the whole thing a bit differently. When I was in elementary/middle we had the same system, required classes. For half the year you were in woodshop, the other half you were in metal shop. In woodshop you made the traditional lamps, corner shelves, and the like, all in pine, slathered with Minwax Jacobean stain and a coat of poly. In metal shop you learned how to use a finger break, solder sheetmetal joints, and so on, and made things like candle holders, oil cans, and so on. Being mandatory, you had the academics as well as the bookworms all in the same class learning to work with their hands, work from a plan, meet a deadline, and all the other rudimentary things that go along with "labor" and life. I went on to a vocational school for high school rather than my local high school.

I guess where I look at it differently is that for most of my adult life I have been in contact with what I call "the worker bee" society daily. The people who work in the plants, build houses, lay brick, dig dirt, build and repair machinery, and so on. And the simple fact of the matter is, those industrial arts classes were a foundation for that work for many of us. I see it on a daily basis when hiring kids out of high school who have never ever had that foundation and many come from families where you dont fix your lawnmower when it breaks down. You dont do a little research and dig into your washing machine to change a 12 dollar belt as opposed to paying a repair man 150 bucks to come out and do it for you.

Sure, there are a lot of industrial jobs out there now where your just a floor worker but there are just as many where your not and that foundation still applies. Its no different than the guy with a degree in physical education landing a job at an insurance company simply because he has a degree. The Phys. Ed degree serves virtually no purpose in his proposed position other than to say he persevered, self motivated, got is butt out of bed on his own, and so on, and completed the necessary requirements to get his degree. It simply shows he applied himself and nothing more. Yet it happens all the time. A person in the same department, non-degree'd, who can do the job in their sleep, will get overlooked because the employer has a degree as one of the criteria for the job. Its not a degree in "insurance", its just a degree. I think part of that is the system wanting to support the system because often times the non-degree'd individual may do the task better but thats neither here nor there. But I think the same applies to industrial arts programs. There is a large component of society, and the workforce, that is simply being left behind at the moment and general convention is that these are the "dumb" kids (not saying anyone here has said that).

What gets me about statements like Brian's (and I dont mean this about him personally) is how nauseating it is to see and hear how disconnected so many today are to the grease and gears and bearings of our economy. Whether you like it or not, there is still a guy dawning a hazmat suit in your community and climbing down into a filter tank in your waste water facility and manually scraping tampons and condoms and lord knows what else off the screens. I mean that "is" Mike Rowe's dirty jobs.

Its no different than Scott's previous hiring post. People (not you David) are so far out of touch with what you "can" actually live on with regards to income that they honestly convince themselves its no longer possible. One may not want to, but it can be done. I personally feel the whole conversation dovetails together.

Im not that old, but I felt like during the boom the people who for years were considered the "common folk", while they didnt make a lot more, got a bit of a break so to speak. Cash was flowing, people were happy to have work done, maybe the mechanic got beatup a little less for his 65/hr when the $300/hr lawyer came in to pick up his BMW. But as the economy tanked, we are back sliding into the old mindset.

I remember when I made the decision to go to vocational school rather than conventional high school. I remember vividly being directly and publicly criticized by friends, fellow students, and even remember feeling it clearly from parents of friends who somewhat looked down on that option as if you were one of those kids from the "other side of the tracks" even though we lived just a few houses away. I even remember a friends father who was in-fact a shop teacher not being so supportive because his main goal was that his children were going to go to college and "do something" with themselves. It never bothered me because for some strange reason (which I am sure I owe fully to my mother raising me) I always knew, and was at peace with, my "lot" in life. I knew I was a worker bee and was happy, proud, comfortable, with that regardless of what others thoughts were. I relished the times when those parents called me, a 17 year old, at 10 at night because their boiler wouldnt start, or water heater let go, or their roof was leaking, or their lights had gone out. As a young person I would go, get them back on track, and take nothing. I owned them at that point.

I fear that in todays society the kids like me have no support. They have no "normal" to look to. I fear we will be left with a bunch of clerks at the autoparts store, cashiers at the home center, and fewer and fewer doing good quality work for customers. You can see it on nearly every jobsite out there and read it on every forum. Quality is going down, down, down. Perhaps rightly so, those who dont see the value in the vocational education system are suffering because of it. Im not vindictive but but I have little sympathy for their suffering.

I honestly think liability is a major reason for a lot industrial arts programs disappearing however I also feel schools and the education system in general is so bloated with bureaucracy, excessive compensation, complacency, and making schools into visual Mecca's instead of schools, chews up the funds that would allow them to carry adequate liability to keep these programs in place.

[Andrei Georgescu]

Kids should develop their minds and skills in schools. After all, being able to use tools, to plan and build stuff is a fundamental characteristic of a human being. Maybe it's not relevant for some but at least the system should provide optional classes in this area.
The Germans are doing a wonderful job with their high standards in educating craftspeople. I think this is one of the areas where the German educational system got it right. No wonder they're the driving force of Europe's economy.

[David Weaver]

The german system, if it is what it once was, does a better job of directing high school age kids into things that will train them to be economically useful (I know that term offends some) and to not allow them to run into university and waste their time and money on something that will never be gainful for them.

We have vo-tech schools here, but I don't know what they train in right now. Auto mechanical stuff and HVAC, Welding, etc were popular at the vo tech when I was a kid, but you had to travel 40 minutes to get to the local votech school vs. less than 10 for most other kids. And they never did actually present it that I can recall - or maybe they only presented the option to certain kids.

[Stew Hagerty]

The german system, if it is what it once was, does a better job of directing high school age kids into things that will train them to be economically useful (I know that term offends some) and to not allow them to run into university and waste their time and money on something that will never be gainful for them.

We have vo-tech schools here, but I don't know what they train in right now. Auto mechanical stuff and HVAC, Welding, etc were popular at the vo tech when I was a kid, but you had to travel 40 minutes to get to the local votech school vs. less than 10 for most other kids. And they never did actually present it that I can recall - or maybe they only presented the option to certain kids.

I believe that "Economically useful" is a term that we, as Americans, have a moral and ethical obligation to be. Freedom isn't free. Back when this country was founded, people didn't wait around expecting handouts (especially not from the government), they worked and they worked hard. Sure, some folks were unable to work because of some sort of disability just as they are today. Back then their families took care of them. But I digress... Another term is "economically successful". That second term is what you can become if you are the first.

It's so sad. In a time when we have sure high unemployment, and are losing so many jobs where people actually work with their hands to illegal aliens (that's right, I did not say the more politically correct, yet completely incorrect, term of "undocumented immigrant") and to other countries, that our government thinks the best thing to do is eliminate all training in those very trades.

Sorry for going all political on everyone here, but it just bites my butt that this is happening.

[Mark Bolton]

It's so sad. In a time when we have sure high unemployment, and are losing so many jobs where people actually work with their hands to illegal aliens (that's right, I did not say the more politically correct, yet completely incorrect, term of "undocumented immigrant") and to other countries, that our government thinks the best thing to do is eliminate all training in those very trades.

Stew,
I dont think it has anything whatsoever to do with "our government". When I was in shop class we had spinning sharp things whirring around, in metal shop we soldered with old school furnace heated soldering irons, things that would "burn you". We soldered with "lead solder". These are not things that have been demonized by governments. They are things that have been demonized by parents and insurance companies. School boards of course are wanting to hoard all the funds for their top heavy existence but there is no order from on high to eliminate vocational training or industrial arts programs. The issue is a redirecting of funds and liability.

The simple fact of the matter is, in the context of this conversation, where would one go to "learn" these trades? Brian says they dont teach them in school, David says his notion of vo-tech doesnt sound so great. So where does a kid go? They can get some experience in a vo-ag program at school or go to some ITT tech school after high school (that they likely cant afford) to learn how to build a house or work with wood?

Scapegoating the government is an all too common, and forgive me but, lazy, way to go about it. There is no national mandate to do away with industrial arts programs in middle and high school. I have had local schools approach me to bring students to our shop to make things and get some hands on, field trip, type work in. Why do you think I dont do it? Dewey Cheat'em and Howe is why. I couldnt protect myself from a hardwood sliver. Heck the hot soldering irons alone when I was in middle school would shut any program down now. Lead solder? Sharp metal? Poly Urethane?! Its the parents and the insurance companies.

Blaming the government is a reinforcement of the nanny state.

[Chris Padilla]

It taught me a pleasurable hobby that I tend to spend way too much money on!!!

I can't honestly say if it guided me towards engineering (I'm an EE) but if I wasn't doing engineering, I'd probably be building houses or furniture or something like that...I think.

[Stew Hagerty]

Stew,
I dont think it has anything whatsoever to do with "our government". When I was in shop class we had spinning sharp things whirring around, in metal shop we soldered with old school furnace heated soldering irons, things that would "burn you". We soldered with "lead solder". These are not things that have been demonized by governments. They are things that have been demonized by parents and insurance companies. School boards of course are wanting to hoard all the funds for their top heavy existence but there is no order from on high to eliminate vocational training or industrial arts programs. The issue is a redirecting of funds and liability.

The simple fact of the matter is, in the context of this conversation, where would one go to "learn" these trades? Brian says they dont teach them in school, David says his notion of vo-tech doesnt sound so great. So where does a kid go? They can get some experience in a vo-ag program at school or go to some ITT tech school after high school (that they likely cant afford) to learn how to build a house or work with wood?

Scapegoating the government is an all too common, and forgive me but, lazy, way to go about it. There is no national mandate to do away with industrial arts programs in middle and high school. I have had local schools approach me to bring students to our shop to make things and get some hands on, field trip, type work in. Why do you think I dont do it? Dewey Cheat'em and Howe is why. I couldnt protect myself from a hardwood sliver. Heck the hot soldering irons alone when I was in middle school would shut any program down now. Lead solder? Sharp metal? Poly Urethane?! Its the parents and the insurance companies.

Blaming the government is a reinforcement of the nanny state.

Mark, Mark, Mark... I could really go on all day about this and sooooo many other things. However, this is a social woodworking forum and I feel it is not the place for intense political discussions.

My point was simply that it is such a shame that my children's children will not have the same opportunities that you and I, and countless generations before us did.

[Mark Bolton]

\it is such a shame that my children's children will not have the same opportunities that you and I, and countless generations before us did.

I couldnt agree more.

[Brad Adams]

As a plumbing and heating business owner, I can assure you, shop classes are a great way to teach young people how to use tools. Brian has obviously never been in a position of working with someone who has no idea of how to use tools. I regularly hire high school students in the summer time for part time help. I can easily see the difference in someone who has taken some shop classes. I had one kid who didn't know how to use a push broom, No kidding. It gets harder all the time to find someone who wants to make a living in the trades. Shop classes in school need to be kept going.

[Brian Elfert]

I do repair a lot of things myself. I finished my basement, two bedrooms, and two bathrooms back in 2007. I did about 50% of the work myself with some help and hired out the rest. I did the electrical and plumbing and it passed inspection the first time. Now, I don't do everything myself. My house is presently for sale. One of my cellular blinds broke a string yesterday. I thought about restringing it myself, but I found a guy who could do it same day for $60 at my house. He knew some tricks I would never have known like rotating the rivets so the string wouldn't just get cut on the worn rivet again. I also found out Wednesday the front part of my roof needs to be re-shingled. I decided I probably wouldn't be able to do it myself for at least a month so I will probably pay to have it done as they can do it next week probably.

I've been working on converting a bus to a motorhome since 2006. I've done all the work on the bus except some mechanical work and the woodwork around the bunks. I've probably got 500 hours into the interior and another 200 hours into work on the engine including replacing the 200 pound radiator and fixing oil leaks. A retired friend of mine did the woodwork around the bunks and he probably put 150 or more hours in it.

Despite all this, I don't feel qualified to work at a professional woodworking shop nor do I feel qualified to work as a carpenter. I've built a wall or two in my time, but I wouldn't attempt an entire building without experienced help. I don't know all the little tricks a good carpenter knows to speed things up. I tend to be way too particular about thing which would make me a poor professional carpenter as I would be too slow.

[Brian Elfert]

As a plumbing and heating business owner, I can assure you, shop classes are a great way to teach young people how to use tools. Brian has obviously never been in a position of working with someone who has no idea of how to use tools. I regularly hire high school students in the summer time for part time help. I can easily see the difference in someone who has taken some shop classes. I had one kid who didn't know how to use a push broom, No kidding. It gets harder all the time to find someone who wants to make a living in the trades. Shop classes in school need to be kept going.

My father and I do volunteer repair and construction work at a Scout camp every year for a week. There is a small group of guys who are professional framers who build entire buildings for the camp during that week. They won't let anyone else help because someone who doesn't know framing just gets in the way. I know how to use a lot of tools, but I wouldn't be any help never having been a framer.

[Stew Hagerty]

My father and I do volunteer repair and construction work at a Scout camp every year for a week. There is a small group of guys who are professional framers who build entire buildings for the camp during that week. They won't let anyone else help because someone who doesn't know framing just gets in the way. I know how to use a lot of tools, but I wouldn't be any help never having been a framer.

Construction, woodworking, electrician, plumber, auto mechanic, etc... Those are things you cannot learn without doing. Our kids need to learn how to work with their hands. Even if they never become a framer or plumber, hands-on training teaches more than just the trade itself. It teaches discipline, responsibility, and I think it triggers a part of the brain that allows a person to think 3 dimensionally in a way that books and computers just can't do. It signals our technical gene to kick in.

[Jim Matthews]

I could really go on all day about this and sooooo many other things.

Please don't, you're lecturing out of your depth.

However, this is a social woodworking forum and I feel it is not the place for intense political discussions.

Spare us the Libertarian theology. Plenty of places for this - elsewhere.