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Thread: Tapered vs Krenov/Hock vs Japansese Style irons

  1. #61
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    Starting to get tetchy again.Jack? Now,play nice with your toys.
    Last edited by george wilson; 04-11-2014 at 7:34 AM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Kees Heiden View Post
    Thanks for th epicture David. Indeed, not much to see
    I wonder, could you cut the abutments with a saw, or sidefloat in this plane? I have seen planes where the front edge of the abutments, if continued down, would end up in the wear, so you wouldn't be able to use a sidefloat to cut that line.
    Kees, I believe you could. I'll place a saw in all of the places a cut would need to be made and make sure that's true, but I believe that the abutments terminate into the side of the plane tapering to nothing there (into the cheeks) rather than turning at the bottom into the wear. If that makes sense. It's a very "copyable" plane.

  3. #63
    Yes I think I understand what you mean. You would have to take short strokes, to avoid hitting the sidefloat against the wear.

  4. #64
    I don't think you would ever use a side float to cut the abutments. You use an edge float or a saw.
    On any double iron plane, the line of the abutment, if continued down, will always hit the wear. On a single iron plane, that line will more or less coincide with the front of the mouth, so when you add in another 1/8" or so for the cap iron, the abutment has to be forward of the mouth. So, you're always making a stopped cut on a double iron, whereas on a single iron you can just run the saw right through the mouth.
    My favorite tool for cutting the abutments is an old drywall saw, with all the set removed and the teeth reshaped for cutting wood. It cost me zero yankee dollars.

  5. #65
    Yes edge float, sorry. And I think ou are right. Only a jack plane with a huge mouth would have enough space for a double iron with the abutments all the way down.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Voigt View Post
    My favorite tool for cutting the abutments is an old drywall saw
    Somewhere, I got a stiff cheap japanese zero clearance saw somewhere, and I've always used that. Cheap is good for a saw that does so little actual cutting and makes up such a small portion of time in terms of planemaking.

    I forgot to answer one question, and that's whether or not the wedge arms taper gradually before their final steep taper. I don't know for sure, I'll check tonight.

    I obviously have made a big deal about this plane because I'm hoping that the planemakers who stumble through forums might think that it's worth copying, and the same for everyone else who is only going to make one or two for personal use. As a friend of mine (english) says often "you have to go out of your way to do something and not spend 10% more time to do it right". It helps to have the resources to know what "right" is, and this is the "rightest" plane I've been able to get my hands on so far. Very tidy, tight mouth, attractive eyes, no clog with the cap iron close.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    I forgot to answer one question, and that's whether or not the wedge arms taper gradually before their final steep taper. I don't know for sure, I'll check tonight.
    Thanks very much; no hurry.

    I obviously have made a big deal about this plane because I'm hoping that the planemakers who stumble through forums might think that it's worth copying, and the same for everyone else who is only going to make one or two for personal use. As a friend of mine (english) says often "you have to go out of your way to do something and not spend 10% more time to do it right". It helps to have the resources to know what "right" is, and this is the "rightest" plane I've been able to get my hands on so far. Very tidy, tight mouth, attractive eyes, no clog with the cap iron close.
    This has been a really useful and interesting thread. The supply of really good double iron planes, particularly early ones, is a lot more limited than for moulding planes, just because the bench planes got used up a lot faster. And while the web is full of info on making Krenov planes, there's a real dearth of info on the finer points of making traditional planes. So I think it's helpful.
    Some negative comments were made earlier about the level of discussion on this forum, but I don't think you can find this level of high-level detail on most other forums. The one exception is wood central, but unfortunately the volume and interest seems to be drying up over there.

  8. #68
    The arms on the wedge taper very slightly before their steep taper - like less than half a mm over their length. The mortise is steeper at the abutment (slightly) than it is toward the front of the plane, but only slightly. It's almost vertical at the abutments.

    Kees - like steve said, the abutments terminate in the wear, or at least the line of them does. They actually taper into the cheeks of the mortise at the same time they reach the wear.

  9. #69
    I've saved all the informations and the pictures. I still have some long planes needing extensive work, and this is a good guideline.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    The arms on the wedge taper very slightly before their steep taper - like less than half a mm over their length. The mortise is steeper at the abutment (slightly) than it is toward the front of the plane, but only slightly. It's almost vertical at the abutments.
    Cool, thanks for checking.

  11. #71
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    Starting to get tetchy again.Jack? Now,play nice with your toys.
    Seems that every time I disagree with David he accuses me of targeting him. I'm not tetchy, but I do know when someone is speaking from ignorance and I don't like it at all, always results in bad advice being given. Again, I don't care what kind of tools anyone uses; but I do expect everyone here to only speak from personal experience, not what one has read, heard, blah, blah, blah.

    And why you of all people would join in the criticism is beyond me. What? Are you David's second punch? Why? I've never said anything that remotely criticizes you, nothing but accolades.
    Last edited by Jack Curtis; 04-12-2014 at 8:26 PM.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Curtis View Post
    Seems that every time I disagree with David he accuses me of targeting him. I'm not tetchy, but I do know when someone is speaking from ignorance and I don't like it at all, always results in bad advice being given. Again, I don't care what kind of tools anyone uses; but I do expect everyone here to only speak from personal experience, not what one has read, heard, blah, blah, blah.

    And why you of all people would join in the criticism is beyond me. What? Are you David's second punch? Why? I've never said anything that remotely criticizes you, nothing but accolades.
    Jack, if you think any of my suggestions don't come from personal experience, you're exactly wrong again. The same as you were wrong when you made accusations that "nobody would lend" a rip saw like the one I described several months ago. You should speak about things you know, not conspiracy theories you'd like to guess about.

    I would, however, prefer you take your conspiracy theories elsewhere as this thread has a lot of valuable information in it and doesn't deserve your reckless verbiage.
    Last edited by David Weaver; 04-12-2014 at 9:08 PM.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
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    Interesting discussion.

    I have been using Japanese planes as a hobby for most of my life, and as a professional for years in my career in the construction industry. Of course, I also own and use Stanley planes and Lie-Nielson's reproduction planes. Both have advantages and drawbacks.

    The Japanese plane is elegant, simpler in design, less bulky, and relatively lightweight. And of course, it has the wooden sole which is more pleasant in use. Tearout is no worse with a properly setup Japanese plane than with a properly setup Western style plane. Perhaps a bit better, IMO. And the blades really do cut better and much longer than modern Western planes due to the harder, hand-forged, laminated high-carbon steel construction. But the wooden body wears and can be cantankerous. This is the same for all wooden bodied planes.

    Stanley, Bailey, LN planes have the advantage of a much tougher sole, and a body that doesn't care at all about humidity changes (temperature is another matter, though). And if they are in tolerance, David is absolutely right, they are quicker and easier to adjust. And the two big handles are easy to grip and put some serious back and leg power into. I own them and I use them and I believe them absolutely superior for some applications. And they are certainly easier to become proficient with. But they are bulky, very heavy, and are a fire-hardened bitch to true and fine tune. But the biggest downside of the modern Western plane, in my opinion, is the blade: it just won't get as sharp as even an average Japanese plane, it gets dull much quicker, and is more difficult to sharpen. That hurts productivity. Hand forged high carbon steel at a hardness of RC 62-64 laminated to a low-carbon steel body is just superior in every way.

    Please don't flame me. Excellent work can be done with Western planes.

    I am having a replacement blade and chipbreaker for LN planes made in Japan which I hope to have on the market later this year. Identical dimensions, but both blade and chipbreaker are hand-forged laminated high-carbon steel with a shallow ura (which will probably never need to be tapped out). The prototypes so far have been Blue Steel, since QC is so easy, but we need to finalize the steel to be used. Performs amazingly, turning my staid LN No.6 from a family sedan into a nitro-methane dragster.

    I am going to give some details of a conversation I had yesterday with the blacksmith about one potential steel on a new post.

    Let me know what steel you think would be best.

    Stan

    PS: Also working in parallel on a tapered and laminated blade with chipbreaker specifically for the Krenov-style plane, but a bit longer than the Hock. Please share your thoughts.
    Last edited by Stanley Covington; 04-12-2014 at 11:12 PM.

  14. #74
    Something similar is available for Stanley planes, made by Tsunesaburo.

    http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...th=339_514_546

  15. #75
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    ...I would, however, prefer you take your conspiracy theories elsewhere as this thread has a lot of valuable information in it and doesn't deserve your reckless verbiage.
    Ah, yes, the disparage and dismiss tactic. Sorry, David, I'm not going anywhere, particularly at your direction. As Stanley explains above and as I've explained many times, there are significant advantages to well tuned Japanese planes which are undeniable among reasonable people who've used both western and eastern planes extensively; and none of those advantages involve tearout. So when someone says there is more tearout, I know that person, whoever it is, is speaking from ignorance. And when that someone has preceded that statement with statements such as "Oh, just buy Japanese planes and throw them in the corner to never be touched again?" Well, you work out the math.

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