A Set of Saws

[Mike Holbrook]

Eric,

At the moment I have a Woodjoy 400 mm bowsaw with both a universal Turbo-Cut blade and a jigging blade. I also have the Gramercy Tools Turning Saw with two each of the three blade sizes they offer. I have been toying with the idea of buying the larger 600 mm Woodjoy saw as there are Rip-Cut and Cross-Cut Turbo-Cut blades available for it. Chair parts often have curved sides. All these blades are economical to just replace when they get dull, although the hardened Japanese Turbo-Cut teeth last quite a long time.

The 400 mm Woodjoy saw is good for just about any small cross or rip cut using the universal blade. The jigging blade for the 400 mm saw makes most curved cuts fast, which is the most common cut I make that is not straight. The Gramercy saw uses 12" coping saw blades with pins installed in each blade for easy changes. The small Gramercy blades are good for making tighter turns and small tight cuts like dovetails. Bowsaws can get into places other saws can't.

Yes, it may take a little longer to learn to use a bowsaw, but I think the Woodjoy and Gramercy offerings have a number of advantages that may make them actually easier for a new user to use. Learning to sharpen handsaws is a challenge and requires files, a vise....I have watched the Herman and several other saw sharpening videos several times and I am still working on that skill set. The easy to swap, replaceable blades for the bowsaws are more versatile and easier to deal with. Bowsaws can be worked with both hands and most of ones larger muscles at a regular bench...

Winton, although I have not tried converting bandsaw blades for use as bowsaw blades, I believe the modification process is more complicated than one might initially think. I have read that the tempered steel blades are hard to drill through, to make pin holes, without breaking the blade. I believe someone, maybe Winton?, mentioned heating the ends of the blade to remove the temper and then drilling. Sounds like more trouble than I would want to take on to to get a blade with heat treated, hard to modify, teeth that may not be ideal for the work?

[Peter Evans]

Jim: I've read so many ways to file a rip saw that I'm confused. They say joint it (easy enough), but how do you joint a saw that is set, without pounding the teeth flat again, otherwise one side gets a bevel? Then they say to file the cutting teeth at different angles, (depending which site you read). 52 degrees seems to be the norm. Then file the back teeth (8 degrees seems to be the norm). Then someone comes along and says do a progressive file and file a deeper gullet, not the gullet that normally occurs when you file the cutting teeth. There is no mention of set (maybe if you look hard enough), and where to place the set tool (I presume the set is 1/2 the thickness of the blade, but is that on both sides).

And most of these sites say filing a saw is easy. So is vector and tensor calculus (forgotten most of it now, and don't want to remember), when you've had two courses in it like me.

Any quick guide, or site.

I'd really hate to ask about X-cut filing.

Eric,

Reading about it is not enough for many (most?). Get the Ron Herman video from Pop WW http://www.shopwoodworking.com/sharp...handsaws-w5169 to see how it is done (they have special offers all the time, and digital download is cheaper as well). Even better is to go to a class. Do not start sharpening on a bad saw, getting the saw teeth right is a second stage skill. Buy an old rip saw (circa 5-6 ppi) with well shaped teeth (does not matter if the teeth are blunt as long as the teeth are all the same size and shape, and have even gullets)), even if you have to pay more for it, to practice on. Do not start with a saw having very large teeth, eg 3.5 ppi, these need a large file and are actually difficult to shape well. Try Vintage saws for a reasonable read http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/f...y/library.html.

Cheers
Peter

[Derek Cohen]

Hello All:

You've all been asked this question before, numerous times, and accordingly I apologize. Times change & so do woodworking tools, in particular saws.
Which saws would you recommend for an aged woodworker (started wood working in 1990, but work & children got the better of me - I am 61 yrs. old). I'm laying out my list what I think is important in regards to saws.

Please add changes/vendors for these saws:

1. Rip (pls, add how many & TPI)
2. X-Cross (pls. add how many & TPI)
3. Panel saw (?)
4. Dovetail or Gent's saw
5. Framing Saw (seems to be the rave)

I, being retired, don't have a good pension. If one, or some of the above could do the job of many, I'd like to know.

Thanks for reading this!

Hi Eric

These are the minimum I think you can get away with ...

You need a 9" or 10" dovetail saw and a 12" or 14" tenon saw. That will do most joinery. I am not mad about gent-style saws. I prefer pistol grips when pushing Western saws.

The dovetail saw, although filed rip, has small teeth (usually 16 ppi), and this is also fine for crosscutting joinery, such as the shoulders of tenons. If you knife the line before hand then the edges will not know if the saw is crosscut or rip.

A tenon saw needs to cut fast and deep, and a crosscut saw or a fine toothed saw is not ideal. It needs to be filed rip. If you can, get a 14" tenon saw with 10 or 11 ppi.

You will need a coping saw for curves or for removing the waste of dovetails. These can be picked up cheaply.

If you use a tablesaw or bandsaw, then you will not require a rip saw. A crosscut panel saw is handy. 24' long and 11 ppi. Leave the rough ripping of stock with saws to the young guys! Stick to joinery (I do)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Jim: I've read so many ways to file a rip saw that I'm confused. They say joint it (easy enough), but how do you joint a saw that is set, without pounding the teeth flat again, otherwise one side gets a bevel? Then they say to file the cutting teeth at different angles, (depending which site you read). 52 degrees seems to be the norm. Then file the back teeth (8 degrees seems to be the norm). Then someone comes along and says do a progressive file and file a deeper gullet, not the gullet that normally occurs when you file the cutting teeth. There is no mention of set (maybe if you look hard enough), and where to place the set tool (I presume the set is 1/2 the thickness of the blade, but is that on both sides).

And most of these sites say filing a saw is easy. So is vector and tensor calculus (forgotten most of it now, and don't want to remember), when you've had two courses in it like me.

Any quick guide, or site.

I'd really hate to ask about X-cut filing.

There is a lot of conflicting pages on saw sharpening. My approach is the same as with many other endeavors, KISS, Keep It Simple Starting. (the original KISS doesn't use Starting.)

This is one of the best starting places for learning about saws and saw filing:

http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/f...y/library.html

So keeping it simple, if at all possible, pick up an old saw, the cheaper the better. Eventually you can pick up a few old saws that will fill some of the spots in your list.

Keep it simple. Don't try to over think it. Just do straight across (without gullets) rip teeth. The goal is to make each tooth the same. The hard part of sharpening is to keep your place and to keep your file stroke the same on each tooth.

Jointing a saw isn't to take the teeth all the way down. Most likely any used saw has too much set unless it was owned by someone who knew how to take care of it. Jointing is just to make sure all the teeth are at the same level. When all the teeth have a shiny spot on top, the jointing is done. This doesn't account for broken teeth or a really poorly filed saw. Sometimes one has to go a bit further. A broken tooth or a low tooth or two can be ignored. I just received a replacement blade from Ron Bontz for an old saw that had a tooth line like the front row of a Willie Nelson concert. The darn thing could still cut dovetails, but the new blade is much better.

Back to your need and first saw to sharpen. Changing tooth count is a lot of work. Unless you want to do a lot of work use what the saw with the tooth count it had when you found it. An exception might be if you wanted to convert a 4ppi saw to an 8ppi saw. Then a lot of jointing and filing. The problem would be trying to set the teeth. Changing the set of a tooth from one side to the other has the nasty habit of snapping teeth.

File the saw rip, this is the easiest to start. My advice would be to start with 9º rake. That is fairly relaxed and makes for an easier starting saw. Give it some test cuts make any adjustments by stoning the teeth as is advised by the library at Vintage Saws.

Once you have used this saw for a while, you will either like it or not. If it is too aggressive, then a lower tooth count can slow it down. If you want it more aggressive, change the rake to 5º to speed it up a little.

Experimenting with an inexpensive saw like this may waste a day or two in the shop, but it will teach you a lot about what you want in your saws.

Bob Smalser posted a tutorial on saw sharpening and other saw care. It can be found in here:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...al-wisdom-FAQs

As for the saws themselves it is difficult to know what you already have in house. I am guessing since you are about the same age as me and from what you said you may not have any power saws. My power saw is an old inexpensive bandsaw. Sometimes ripping by hand is faster and leaves a better edge.

My first back saws were a couple of inexpensive hardware store saws. They worked well for doing dovetails and other joinery. They worked but were not as good as what has since been acquired. The old saws cost a couple bucks at yard sales.

I like my joinery saws in the 12-15ppi range. Everyone's milage will vary on this. Find what you like for speed and comfort.

My main rip saw is 6ppi. My cross cut saws come in a few different tooth counts. My most used one is about 10ppi, if my memory is working. Then another is in the 7ppi area. I have one at about 5ppi but it is mostly used for rough cutting like firewood and such.

From your original post:

1. Rip (pls, add how many & TPI)
2. X-Cross (pls. add how many & TPI)
3. Panel saw (?)
4. Dovetail or Gent's saw
5. Framing Saw (seems to be the rave)

1. Rip, for big jobs I like my 6ppi Disston D-8. At the bench I like a small saw with 13ppi, 5º rake and 5º fleam.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...Back-Saw-Build

2. For cross cutting another D-8 is filed 10ppi, 15º rake and 20º fleam.

3. Don't have a panel saw.

4. Dovetail saws are a bit all over the place in my shop. The one in the Back Saw Build thread is used a lot. Just recently received a saw kit and plate from Ron Bontz. The plate has been installed in an old back saw and works fine at 14ppi, 5º rake and no fleam. The kit is still waiting for me to have time to make a handle. My experience with this has me thinking of making the kit saw with no set and see how that goes for a while. It is cut 15ppi and I haven't decided on the rake as of yet. Most likely in the area of 5º. That seems to work well for me.

5. As for the frame saw, I tend to avoid the latest raves. I have a few old broken band saw blades around the shop and have thought of making saws with them, just haven't gotten a round tuit.

Just my two cents.jpg

And remember, YMMV!!!.jpg

jtk

[Eric Gracka]

There is a lot of conflicting pages on saw sharpening. My approach is the same as with many other endeavors, KISS, Keep It Simple Starting. (the original KISS doesn't use Starting.)

This is one of the best starting places for learning about saws and saw filing:

http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/f...y/library.html

So keeping it simple, if at all possible, pick up an old saw, the cheaper the better. Eventually you can pick up a few old saws that will fill some of the spots in your list.

Keep it simple. Don't try to over think it. Just do straight across (without gullets) rip teeth. The goal is to make each tooth the same. The hard part of sharpening is to keep your place and to keep your file stroke the same on each tooth.

Jointing a saw isn't to take the teeth all the way down. Most likely any used saw has too much set unless it was owned by someone who knew how to take care of it. Jointing is just to make sure all the teeth are at the same level. When all the teeth have a shiny spot on top, the jointing is done. This doesn't account for broken teeth or a really poorly filed saw. Sometimes one has to go a bit further. A broken tooth or a low tooth or two can be ignored. I just received a replacement blade from Ron Bontz for an old saw that had a tooth line like the front row of a Willie Nelson concert. The darn thing could still cut dovetails, but the new blade is much better.

Back to your need and first saw to sharpen. Changing tooth count is a lot of work. Unless you want to do a lot of work use what the saw with the tooth count it had when you found it. An exception might be if you wanted to convert a 4ppi saw to an 8ppi saw. Then a lot of jointing and filing. The problem would be trying to set the teeth. Changing the set of a tooth from one side to the other has the nasty habit of snapping teeth.

File the saw rip, this is the easiest to start. My advice would be to start with 9º rake. That is fairly relaxed and makes for an easier starting saw. Give it some test cuts make any adjustments by stoning the teeth as is advised by the library at Vintage Saws.

Once you have used this saw for a while, you will either like it or not. If it is too aggressive, then a lower tooth count can slow it down. If you want it more aggressive, change the rake to 5º to speed it up a little.

Experimenting with an inexpensive saw like this may waste a day or two in the shop, but it will teach you a lot about what you want in your saws.

Bob Smalser posted a tutorial on saw sharpening and other saw care. It can be found in here:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...al-wisdom-FAQs

As for the saws themselves it is difficult to know what you already have in house. I am guessing since you are about the same age as me and from what you said you may not have any power saws. My power saw is an old inexpensive bandsaw. Sometimes ripping by hand is faster and leaves a better edge.

My first back saws were a couple of inexpensive hardware store saws. They worked well for doing dovetails and other joinery. They worked but were not as good as what has since been acquired. The old saws cost a couple bucks at yard sales.

I like my joinery saws in the 12-15ppi range. Everyone's milage will vary on this. Find what you like for speed and comfort.

My main rip saw is 6ppi. My cross cut saws come in a few different tooth counts. My most used one is about 10ppi, if my memory is working. Then another is in the 7ppi area. I have one at about 5ppi but it is mostly used for rough cutting like firewood and such.

From your original post:



1. Rip, for big jobs I like my 6ppi Disston D-8. At the bench I like a small saw with 13ppi, 5º rake and 5º fleam.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...Back-Saw-Build

2. For cross cutting another D-8 is filed 10ppi, 15º rake and 20º fleam.

3. Don't have a panel saw.

4. Dovetail saws are a bit all over the place in my shop. The one in the Back Saw Build thread is used a lot. Just recently received a saw kit and plate from Ron Bontz. The plate has been installed in an old back saw and works fine at 14ppi, 5º rake and no fleam. The kit is still waiting for me to have time to make a handle. My experience with this has me thinking of making the kit saw with no set and see how that goes for a while. It is cut 15ppi and I haven't decided on the rake as of yet. Most likely in the area of 5º. That seems to work well for me.

5. As for the frame saw, I tend to avoid the latest raves. I have a few old broken band saw blades around the shop and have thought of making saws with them, just haven't gotten a round tuit.

Just my two cents.jpg

And remember, YMMV!!!.jpg

jtk

Thanks, I've read those sights but, they don't explain the following fundamental questions (unless I've missed something in my haste):

1. When you joint a rip saw with set, do you hammer the set out, or do you joint as if the saw had no set?
2. If the rip saw has fleam, and you don't want fleam, what do you do? Do you get rid of the set and then use a stone to get rid of the fleam? If so, it seems that you're losing a lot of steel.

[Eric Gracka]

I have both Tage's books and had the pleasure of seeing him at seminars at Highland Woodworking. Tage was a big fan of bowsaws. Finding blades for bowsaws has been a challenge for many years, although there are the Japanese Turbo Cut saw blades which are fairly easy to find these days. Tage dealt with the low quality blades available for his much loved bowsaws by hand filling them with a rip tooth pattern. From watching him actually do it I think he was mostly trying to provide a solution to the dearth of bowsaw blades that might fly with the woodworkers of the day. Not many people used hand tools at that time in history anyway. I suspect Tage felt like he would have been fighting an uphill battle to convince people to hand file multiple patterns on unpopular bowsaw blades or even hand saw blades. In my mind Tage was one of the hand tool advocates, along with Frank Klaus...who we can thank for the renaissance of hand tools. The bowsaw I bought from Highland Hardware (now Highland Woodworking) back then is a joke compared to the saws I bought more recently from Woodjoy Tools and Tools for Working Wood.

The bowsaw is a very versatile saw. It is even relatively easy to make a bowsaw frame from one of the patterns or actual saws that are available today. If I was starting over with handsaws I might spend a little extra time to learn to use a bowsaw to save money and saw space. It is very easy to change blades on a bowsaw and they are arguably a more versatile saw to start with. I think a set of three bowsaws with a couple blades each could do most of the work done by all the hand saws, panel saws, backsaws....combined. Bowsaws are also arguably easier to use on a standard workbench while conventional thought suggests construction of a special bench for hand saws.

Hi:

I'm confused. Are you talking about a bow saw, like the one I limb trees with, or a frame saw like ECE or Ulmia. My understanding is that they are two different saws, or perhaps now, the terminology is the same.

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks, I've read those sights but, they don't explain the following fundamental questions (unless I've missed something in my haste):

1. When you joint a rip saw with set, do you hammer the set out, or do you joint as if the saw had no set?
2. If the rip saw has fleam, and you don't want fleam, what do you do? Do you get rid of the set and then use a stone to get rid of the fleam? If so, it seems that you're losing a lot of steel.

1. No, leave the set. Some folks will actually set the saw before sharpening if a saw needs it. It has been such a long time since I have visited that site for an in depth read. I do not recall if it was there I read about how to make a file holder for jointing. I have a cast iron saw jointing file holder.

Some folks like to file a rip saw all from one side. Others like to file only in the direction of the set which requires only sharpening half the teeth at a time and flipping the saw between sides.

Jointer & gauge.jpg

The one at the top of in this picture is an upside down saw jointing file holder.

The purpose is to take as little metal off the tips of the teeth as you can. It is always better to do more later if needed. If you do too much it is wasted metal and more time to get to a good finish.

2. When a saw tooth is filed straight across, file at 90º to the tooth line, the fleam will be removed. The cutting edge of the fleam is on the outside forward edge of the tooth. One sharpening may not remove all the fleam, but the fleam that is left will not have much of an effect on the cutting. If it does, lightly joint again and run through the teeth on a second filing. Eventually you will get to a point where the teeth set one way and the teeth set the other way have overlapping cutting edges and will tear through wood.

As confusing as it all this seems, after just a few saw sharpening sessions you will likely be out looking for old bargain saws to tune up.

You will also discover that if you want, you can change your saws' action with fleam and rake changes. Changing tooth count can be a lot of work.

jtk

[Winton Applegate]

Winton, although I have not tried converting bandsaw blades for use as bowsaw blades, I believe the modification process is more complicated than one might initially think. I have read that the tempered steel blades are hard to drill through, to make pin holes, without breaking the blade. I believe someone, maybe Winton?, mentioned heating the ends of the blade to remove the temper and then drilling. Sounds like more trouble than I would want to take on to to get a blade with heat treated, hard to modify, teeth that may not be ideal for the work?

The point of using the bandsaw blade is if there is no other way to GET a blade period, then, the bandsaw blade is an option.
Sure if you can buy what you want off the shelf then of coarse that is the way to get one.
I could not so the bandsaw option was worth the effort..

No most (all ?) band saw blades DO NOT need to be annealed before drilling. The band is pretty tough but not all that hard. The tooth section has been hardened.


You can still sharpen the teeth with a file or I like to use a diamond paddle.


So, to drill the blade just cut off a hunk, center punch the spot the hole is to be, and drill it. Easy once you have done a bit of metal drilling the right way.
Drill with a tiny twist drill like a 1/16 inch
then
use a sheet metal bit to enlarge it. This is a sheet metal bit ( it won’t screw its self into the work like a larger twist drill bit will )
http://www.amazon.com/Titan-16501-Step-Drill-Bit/dp/B0069TUDNU/ref=pd_cp_hi_1


you know though . . . if you were to have to anneal the end of the blade all you would have to do is stick the end of it in the flame of your gas kitchen stove burner or heat up the electric burner element red and place the blade end on it until it got a dull red and let it cool slow with no breeze of air on it and you would be done.


You make it sound like annealing that thin blade is the equivalent of powering up a nuke plant.

[Eric Gracka]

Eric,

At the moment I have a Woodjoy 400 mm bowsaw with both a universal Turbo-Cut blade and a jigging blade. I also have the Gramercy Tools Turning Saw with two each of the three blade sizes they offer. I have been toying with the idea of buying the larger 600 mm Woodjoy saw as there are Rip-Cut and Cross-Cut Turbo-Cut blades available for it. Chair parts often have curved sides. All these blades are economical to just replace when they get dull, although the hardened Japanese Turbo-Cut teeth last quite a long time.

The 400 mm Woodjoy saw is good for just about any small cross or rip cut using the universal blade. The jigging blade for the 400 mm saw makes most curved cuts fast, which is the most common cut I make that is not straight. The Gramercy saw uses 12" coping saw blades with pins installed in each blade for easy changes. The small Gramercy blades are good for making tighter turns and small tight cuts like dovetails. Bowsaws can get into places other saws can't.

Yes, it may take a little longer to learn to use a bowsaw, but I think the Woodjoy and Gramercy offerings have a number of advantages that may make them actually easier for a new user to use. Learning to sharpen handsaws is a challenge and requires files, a vise....I have watched the Herman and several other saw sharpening videos several times and I am still working on that skill set. The easy to swap, replaceable blades for the bowsaws are more versatile and easier to deal with. Bowsaws can be worked with both hands and most of ones larger muscles at a regular bench...

Winton, although I have not tried converting bandsaw blades for use as bowsaw blades, I believe the modification process is more complicated than one might initially think. I have read that the tempered steel blades are hard to drill through, to make pin holes, without breaking the blade. I believe someone, maybe Winton?, mentioned heating the ends of the blade to remove the temper and then drilling. Sounds like more trouble than I would want to take on to to get a blade with heat treated, hard to modify, teeth that may not be ideal for the work?

Hi Mike: Woodjoy's prices for frame saws (bow saws), seem VERY out of line with Ulmia's and ECE's. Any reason for that - after all, it's several pieces of wood with a blade and some twine. The amount and price of hardwood to make the saw is trivial. Good quality blades can be purchased for under $30 (Japanese style excepted).

[David Weaver]

The difference between the two is emmerich saws are a factory item, and the woodjoy saws are not. I'm not taking sides, I only have one frame saw - an emmerich, and it's properly made. I recognize that WJ tools couldn't begin to survive making a 700mm rip saw like mine for $60, which is what I remember it costing.

[Eric Gracka]

The difference between the two is emmerich saws are a factory item, and the woodjoy saws are not. I'm not taking sides, I only have one frame saw - an emmerich, and it's properly made. I recognize that WJ tools couldn't begin to survive making a 700mm rip saw like mine for $60, which is what I remember it costing.

Hello David: Why did you choose ECE over Ulmia? And why do you use it so infrequently? It seems like the most versatile saw you can buy - there are blades for every purpose (I think).

[David Weaver]

I have fast backsaws and slow backsaws and fast carpeters saws. I thought I could get into a whole body rip thing with the long ECE ripper, but it turns out that I would need to modify the handle to do that and since then, I've gotten a lot of western rip saws set up and can rip at a fast pace with them. Ripping with a frame saw is still pretty much a one-arm fatigue process unless you extend the handle so that the blade is centered between your hands.

It just is sort of something I don't need to do anything with at this point, and the only thing that keeps it in my shop is that it's fairly inexpensive and large in size (which makes it a pain in the but to sell and ship).

At one point, I thought I'd like to rip a foot a minute to make it tolerable, but in just getting wood rough dimensioned, but over 2 feet a minute is now about what I target for 4/4. It sounds ridiculous to talk about it, but fast ripping was the only reason I got the other saw and I can rip something like cherry faster and more accurately with a carpenter's saw.

As far as ECE and ulmia, they are the same company as far as I know. The saw to avoid at the time I got mine was putsch, who appears to make all of the inexpensive blades, but there was some trouble their hardware allowing the blade to rotate at the time. If you want to try a decent saw that's not too expensive, the ECE/Ulmia line is probably not a bad way to go.

[Kim Malmberg]

Eric
I feel your pain. I started out with hand tools about three years ago. I read all there was available. I understood very little of it. Actually the more I read, the more confused I got. But I started filing my own saws, with varying results. I still own one or two saws from that period. They are good reminders of how your work will evolve with practice. But what can be very useful to know its that although most saw doctors speak about the importance of a consistent fleam and rake angle, what truly matters is getting the points of the teeth consistently sharp. I have filed some 100 saws and I have not used any rake or fleam guides. I know I will never be positioned in the same category as a Mike Cianci, Michael Merlo or any other of the saw gurus out there. But that doesn't mean I am not capable of making my saws sing. I cannot remember who it was who said it, you don't strive for perfect teeth, you strive for perfect sawing. What you need is to make your saw teeth evenly sharp and evenly set. Yes, angle of attack does matter in terms of aggressivity and speed, but what any wood worker wants is a saw that cuts straight and consistently, irrespective of the speed.
So just try it out. Choose your own angle and experiment. You will be amazed at how your saws will improve.

[David Weaver]

Kim, I made the same comment in another thread. What a professional woodworker would do to file a saw and what someone who is charging $40-$70 to file are two very different things. There is a theme out there about needing to joint saws every time they're filed, and needing to use a fleam guide and all of that stuff, but I don't do any of that either. If I have a problem, I fix it. I might joint once every 5 filings. It should take a couple of minutes to touch up a rip saw, which is one of the reasons it's somewhat ridiculous to send saws off to file. For the most part, I can refresh a saw faster than I could locate a box and get it packed. I'm sure you can, too.

[Eric Gracka]

Eric
I feel your pain. I started out with hand tools about three years ago. I read all there was available. I understood very little of it. Actually the more I read, the more confused I got. But I started filing my own saws, with varying results. I still own one or two saws from that period. They are good reminders of how your work will evolve with practice. But what can be very useful to know its that although most saw doctors speak about the importance of a consistent fleam and rake angle, what truly matters is getting the points of the teeth consistently sharp. I have filed some 100 saws and I have not used any rake or fleam guides. I know I will never be positioned in the same category as a Mike Cianci, Michael Merlo or any other of the saw gurus out there. But that doesn't mean I am not capable of making my saws sing. I cannot remember who it was who said it, you don't strive for perfect teeth, you strive for perfect sawing. What you need is to make your saw teeth evenly sharp and evenly set. Yes, angle of attack does matter in terms of aggressivity and speed, but what any wood worker wants is a saw that cuts straight and consistently, irrespective of the speed.
So just try it out. Choose your own angle and experiment. You will be amazed at how your saws will improve.

Thank you very much Kim for making someone feel better about themselves and giving a good explanation, rather than the ones who don't answer the questions directly - you don't seem to be in the league of "perfectionists". Despite what I've said, there are many people on this site that are well seasoned, know what they are doing, and try to help, and sometimes succeed. They know a lot, and assume you know a bit of what they're talking about; nothing could be further from the truth, despite the volumes I've read.