Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 47

Thread: A Set of Saws

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Carp, Ontario. Canada K0A 1L0
    Posts
    46
    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    Kim, I made the same comment in another thread. What a professional woodworker would do to file a saw and what someone who is charging $40-$70 to file are two very different things. There is a theme out there about needing to joint saws every time they're filed, and needing to use a fleam guide and all of that stuff, but I don't do any of that either. If I have a problem, I fix it. I might joint once every 5 filings. It should take a couple of minutes to touch up a rip saw, which is one of the reasons it's somewhat ridiculous to send saws off to file. For the most part, I can refresh a saw faster than I could locate a box and get it packed. I'm sure you can, too.
    David: As with Kim, I really like your response. Would it be possible for you to post a rudimentary, very short guide as to how to file a rip saw with set & fleam? Will jointing do the same for fleam and deep gullets?. I think Kim stated that if set is present, jointinting will handle set. Will it handle fleam?

    At this point, I just feel like taking my rip saw, jointing it, and by eye, just filing it so it looks good (engineering-wise). If it doesn't work, I'll try again. I'm sick of the so-called pundits with all their jigs. Why can't they do it by hand?
    Last edited by Eric Gracka; 04-19-2014 at 5:29 PM.
    Eric Gracka

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Carp, Ontario. Canada K0A 1L0
    Posts
    46
    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    I have fast backsaws and slow backsaws and fast carpeters saws. I thought I could get into a whole body rip thing with the long ECE ripper, but it turns out that I would need to modify the handle to do that and since then, I've gotten a lot of western rip saws set up and can rip at a fast pace with them. Ripping with a frame saw is still pretty much a one-arm fatigue process unless you extend the handle so that the blade is centered between your hands.

    It just is sort of something I don't need to do anything with at this point, and the only thing that keeps it in my shop is that it's fairly inexpensive and large in size (which makes it a pain in the but to sell and ship).

    At one point, I thought I'd like to rip a foot a minute to make it tolerable, but in just getting wood rough dimensioned, but over 2 feet a minute is now about what I target for 4/4. It sounds ridiculous to talk about it, but fast ripping was the only reason I got the other saw and I can rip something like cherry faster and more accurately with a carpenter's saw.

    Personally, I have some hand saws. 2 planes, some stones & chisels, and a power drill.

    As far as ECE and ulmia, they are the same company as far as I know. The saw to avoid at the time I got mine was putsch, who appears to make all of the inexpensive blades, but there was some trouble their hardware allowing the blade to rotate at the time. If you want to try a decent saw that's not too expensive, the ECE/Ulmia line is probably not a bad way to go.
    Hi David: I'm wondering, if you're interested in the speed of cutting and fatigue (I'm 61 and get tired easily), why not a bandsaw (noise?). Cuts quicker and more accurately than any handsaw, and you're still have to going to have to plane, just like a cut with a hand rip saw.

    Personally, it just pain feels good to do it by hand - a sense of accomplishment, rather than turn out factory goods. I have no power tools - I have hand saws, a hand drill, 2 augers, 2 planes, and sharpening stones.
    Last edited by Eric Gracka; 04-19-2014 at 6:41 PM.
    Eric Gracka

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Posts
    989
    What are you trying to do, and what other tools do you have?
    Rough wood breakdown toolkit is different than joinery… and small boxes would be different scale than dining tables.

    For rough wood breakdown:
    -If you aren't a strict hand tool devotee (due to space, aesthetics, etc) a used bandsaw would be my choice for ripping… unless I already knew that I enjoyed the pace/workout of doing it by hand.
    - I've got a 26" 8tpi Disston crosscut saw that cuts well. But so does my cheap hard point saw: http://www.amazon.com/BAHCO-2600-22-.../dp/B0001IX7OC

    For joinery:
    - veritas saws get a lot of good reviews, especially on price/performance.
    - I've got Gramercy dovetail/sash saws that I like for the smooth start and cut… but there's tradeoffs to everything.
    - I also have a Z dozuki from Woodcraft that I seem to use fairly often. (Sometimes you feel like a push, and sometimes you feel like a pull…)

    Matt

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Longview WA
    Posts
    27,347
    Blog Entries
    1
    The rake guide I use is the one described on vingagesaws.com. For fleam I have used a ruler or bevel gauge laying on the bench and even made my own fleam gauge that rides on the saw.

    http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...am-Bevel-Gauge

    Besides getting all the teeth of equal sharpness it is also important getting them to be of equal height. A low tooth or two isn't a real problem. A tall tooth can become a 'snaggle tooth.' When teeth start snagging it is time for jointing.

    Jointing the teeth should stop when every tooth has been hit. Going further than this is just extra work unless one is changing the tooth count. Then may the force be with you...

    I have filed a saw without any guides and just being careful to match the current angles before pushing the file.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Longview WA
    Posts
    27,347
    Blog Entries
    1
    I'm wondering, if you're interested in the speed of cutting and fatigue (I'm 61 and get tired easily), why not a bandsaw (noise?). Cuts quicker and more accurately than any handsaw, and you're still have to going to have to plane, just like a cut with a hand rip saw.
    Depending on the wood, it is easier for me to rip an long board by hand than it is to get a good cut on the bandsaw. One of the hardest parts of cutting long pieces on the bandsaw for me is getting my wife to help. Next is to make sure she doesn't cause problems with the saw. Finally, my eyesight isn't good enough to be more than a few feet from the blade. I do not have an in feed or out feed for my bandsaw.

    My bandsaw is kind of wimpy and for some woods I can actually beat it by hand. At least for a cut or two. It doesn't get tired like I do.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Carp, Ontario. Canada K0A 1L0
    Posts
    46
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    Depending on the wood, it is easier for me to rip an long board by hand than it is to get a good cut on the bandsaw. One of the hardest parts of cutting long pieces on the bandsaw for me is getting my wife to help. Next is to make sure she doesn't cause problems with the saw. Finally, my eyesight isn't good enough to be more than a few feet from the blade. I do not have an in feed or out feed for my bandsaw.

    My bandsaw is kind of wimpy and for some woods I can actually beat it by hand. At least for a cut or two. It doesn't get tired like I do.

    jtk

    I have exactly the same problem as you, except my eye sight is probably poorer - that's why I sold my bandsaw. How long should a rip saw be to do accurate rips (28" ?). Some woodworkers recommend 26".

    After you rip, do recommend going with scrub plane, followed by a smoothing and try plane, or is that going overboard?
    Last edited by Eric Gracka; 04-21-2014 at 7:06 PM.
    Eric Gracka

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Longview WA
    Posts
    27,347
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Gracka View Post
    I have exactly the same problem as you, except my eye sight is probably poorer - that's why I sold my bandsaw. How long should a rip saw be to do accurate rips (28" ?). Some woodworkers recommend 26".

    After you rip, do recommend going with scrub plane, followed by a smoothing and try plane, or is that going overboard?
    The longer the saw the more often you will be hitting the floor.

    The planes used after the rip depends on what is being done with the wood and how the surface is after the rip. If there was bad saw wander then a scrub might be needed.

    A good rip may just need clean up with anything from a #5 to a #8. Then a smoother if needed.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  8. #38
    Eric, with all due respect. you seem to be focusing on the one thing so many of us do when we aren't finding the one, true answer to our question, which was the root of our search for an answer. You are over-thinking this issue, big time...

    It is not difficult to find a usable saw at a flea market, antique shop, fleabay, or whatever. To become fluent with saw sharpening, you MUST spend some time pushing a file against a saw plate. Only after seeing the results of your efforts will you be able to see what everyone here has been trying to tell you. You have to experience the actual filing, to be able to evaluate the results you get when pushing a file against a line of saw teeth. There is no magic answer to your queries. You have to actually try the things these guys are suggesting to you in order to recognize the concepts they are proposing. Almost all of us, with the possible exception of some who have an innate knack for tool usage and preparation, have had to go through the same process these fine folks have been sharing with you. You need to understand that ...

    1. You will make mistakes (that is why you pick up a saw at a flea market for $2, and begin to learn on it)...

    2, You pick up some saw files, like the rest of us have done, so you have sufficient tools to do the learning with...

    3. You read a good primer on restoring a handsaw. (Many have been suggested to you thus far)...

    4. Apply the file to the saw in the manner the primer suggests.

    5. Evaluate the results. If the results are not what you were hoping for, evaluate the results, determine where you may have deviated from the optimum, and re-file it until you have a saw that will perform the way you want it to...

    There is no magic answer here. It takes time and effort to become fluent with saw sharpening, just as it takes experience in plane and chisel iron sharpening, to achieve the final results we all strive for. No magic bullets, no immediate gratification, no instant results. If it was easy, anyone could do it without needing to understand the tool, and if that was the case, very few of us would be interested, right?

    Spend the time needed to understand the tools you wish to use, and your work will reflect your knowledge. This method of creation is not intended to be easy. Again, if it was easy, anyone could do it, and if so, where's the challenge?

    Endless videos, discussions, demonstrations, will help you understand the process of learning how to work wood, but only working wood will allow you to truly achieve the results you seem to seek. Pay your dues, my friend, like every one of the folks who have so eagerly tried to help you, have done in the past.

    Years ago, apprentices spent years, really, years, sharpening tools, fetching coffee, taking out the trash, and many other not so rewarding tasks in order to earn the right to a bit of instruction during a six to ten year apprenticeship in our domain. We don't have to do that now, but we do have to learn the basics, in order to progress at an acceptable pace. No one I know has become a master woodworker without paying his dues... It is certainly a worthwhile pursuit, in my own, humble opinion, and I have been at it for over forty years. Sometimes I amaze myself, and others, I feel like a first year apprentice...

    Of course, your mileage may vary...

    I wish you all of the luck in the world...

    Doug Trembath

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Carp, Ontario. Canada K0A 1L0
    Posts
    46
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Hills View Post
    What are you trying to do, and what other tools do you have?
    Rough wood breakdown toolkit is different than joinery… and small boxes would be different scale than dining tables.

    For rough wood breakdown:
    -If you aren't a strict hand tool devotee (due to space, aesthetics, etc) a used bandsaw would be my choice for ripping… unless I already knew that I enjoyed the pace/workout of doing it by hand.
    - I've got a 26" 8tpi Disston crosscut saw that cuts well. But so does my cheap hard point saw: http://www.amazon.com/BAHCO-2600-22-.../dp/B0001IX7OC

    For joinery:
    - veritas saws get a lot of good reviews, especially on price/performance.
    - I've got Gramercy dovetail/sash saws that I like for the smooth start and cut… but there's tradeoffs to everything.
    - I also have a Z dozuki from Woodcraft that I seem to use fairly often. (Sometimes you feel like a push, and sometimes you feel like a pull…)

    Matt
    My 1st project (after 25 yrs.), is to build a sturdy workbench, Roubo-style (only because I like the looks), using dimensional lumber, for which, I want to do entirely by hand, - if there are more robust, better designs, I am certainly open to suggestions. The size, unless you have a more practical one, will be 96"L x 28"W x 34"H, and I will be using 2 x 6's, hand picked at Home Depot. I am completely ignorant as to how to mount useful vises (tail, front, and the list goes on) and dogs (square or round).

    I stopped woodworking in 1990, and my "limited collection of rudimentary tools" includes:

    Hand Tools:
    1. #5 Stanley with a Sweetheart cutter (refurbished & recently bought) - perhaps a bad buy, but looks fantastic (never used it).
    2. #8 Record (quite old, but show quality, works great, and I'll never sell it - at least 40 yrs. all paint in tact, and & no rust)
    3. Veritas scrub plane - thinking of returning it according to what I've read. They say a good rip saw, along with a smoothing and a try (fore plane) can do the job, but I'm not convinced.
    4. set of 3 Swedish cabinet scrapers & burnisher (at least 30 yrs. old and in perfect condition - just used it to refurbish a saw handle). I will keep.
    5. 24" Disston D8 X-cut (panel saw?) - haven't counted the teeth. Bought it out of ignorance.
    6. Spears & Jackson tenon saw (12" x 15 PPI - I hate it, maybe because I don't know how to set teeth). I hate it.
    7. Japanense saws - Ryoba (Carpenter’s Saw – Ryoba Noko Giri – Gyokucho brand RazorSaw – A double edged saw
    Handle and 12″” blade: #19.616.0 & Crosscut Saw w/thicker blade – Kataha Noko Giri – Gyokucho brand RazorSaw -A single edged saw
    Handle and 9.5″ blade: #19.410.0 I hate them; perhaps it's because i"m used to Western saws, or I just can't get the hang of them.
    8. set of LV Narex mortising chisels
    9. set of LV bevel chisels
    10. 3 Japanese water stones (not impressed)
    11. medium Arkansas
    12. surgical black Arkansas (I think Dan Hall), but thinking of adding Norton Crystolon coarse, India medium at Sharpening Supplies)
    13. an ancient huge auger, with all bits (given to me, by my best neighbor)
    14. a "newer" small auger, with all bits (Ebay)
    15. hand drill (bought it new 30 yrs. ago, perfect condition, and I'll newer sell it)
    16. IGaging combo square + 4" & 6" try squares
    17. rosewood marking gauge (LV)

    Power Tools:
    1. DeWalt 12" miter with 80 teeth (given to me)
    2. Milwaukee 15 amp, 7 1/4" circular saw (for plywood, MDF, etc.)
    3. Rigid 1/2" impact drill (son used it on a concrete floor and swears by it).

    What do I need, and what do I need to discard (give to my son who is a plumber, and starting to get into wood working)
    Last edited by Eric Gracka; 04-21-2014 at 11:35 PM.
    Eric Gracka

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Carp, Ontario. Canada K0A 1L0
    Posts
    46
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Winton, your collection is spectacular!

    eric, this very much depends on what you build! If you have machine tools for long rips than you could make due with a set of crosscut and rip carcass saws. If you do not, then I would add a set of panel saws. If you build big joinery on top of that I would add a large tenon saw. If you cut curves by hand, or dream if doing so, then add a bowsaw. For flush cuts add a Japanese flush cut saw.

    i know myself well enough to know that if I yearn for a tool, eventually I will buy it. so often times the path of least resistance is the one to take.
    What would you suggest for a panel saw? LV has:

    "First developed in 1776, Pax handsaws have a reputation for quality and performance. The alloy-steel blades are taper ground and breasted to reduce binding; the teeth are hand set and sharpened.Available in rip (4.5 tpi) or panel (10 tpi) style tooth configurations, the 22" long blades have comfortable, two-tone, steamed beech handles with brass rivets."

    $99 each (in Canada)

    Any good?
    Eric Gracka

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Carp, Ontario. Canada K0A 1L0
    Posts
    46
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Holbrook View Post
    Right Brian, chances are my saw collection want get any smaller either. Still, one has to start somewhere and I think a set of three bowasws ( Gramercy 12" turning saw, Woodjoy 400 & 600 mm saws, or home made equivalents ) would provide a new woodworker with an answer for most turning, crosscutting or ripping needs with just the three saws and some extra blades. Then one might build a larger saw set at a more leisurely pace.
    Gramercy are way out of my price range.
    Eric Gracka

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Carp, Ontario. Canada K0A 1L0
    Posts
    46
    Quote Originally Posted by Winton Applegate View Post
    I came up against that fence too.

    As they say in the Simon Pegg and Nick Frost movies
    "What's the matter . . . never taken a short cut before ?"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCzaH0kNzWg


    YMMV
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWiD4_-AMKI
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNQW3yNCoeA

    Found the solution (I would think Tage would have done the same. Surprised he didn't).





    I've heard so much that is bad about bow (frame saws). But, having never used one, I think they are the most versatile. I've found Ulmia & Ece. Any recommendations.
    Eric Gracka

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Carp, Ontario. Canada K0A 1L0
    Posts
    46
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Holbrook View Post
    Eric,

    At the moment I have a Woodjoy 400 mm bowsaw with both a universal Turbo-Cut blade and a jigging blade. I also have the Gramercy Tools Turning Saw with two each of the three blade sizes they offer. I have been toying with the idea of buying the larger 600 mm Woodjoy saw as there are Rip-Cut and Cross-Cut Turbo-Cut blades available for it. Chair parts often have curved sides. All these blades are economical to just replace when they get dull, although the hardened Japanese Turbo-Cut teeth last quite a long time.

    The 400 mm Woodjoy saw is good for just about any small cross or rip cut using the universal blade. The jigging blade for the 400 mm saw makes most curved cuts fast, which is the most common cut I make that is not straight. The Gramercy saw uses 12" coping saw blades with pins installed in each blade for easy changes. The small Gramercy blades are good for making tighter turns and small tight cuts like dovetails. Bowsaws can get into places other saws can't.

    Yes, it may take a little longer to learn to use a bowsaw, but I think the Woodjoy and Gramercy offerings have a number of advantages that may make them actually easier for a new user to use. Learning to sharpen handsaws is a challenge and requires files, a vise....I have watched the Herman and several other saw sharpening videos several times and I am still working on that skill set. The easy to swap, replaceable blades for the bowsaws are more versatile and easier to deal with. Bowsaws can be worked with both hands and most of ones larger muscles at a regular bench...

    Winton, although I have not tried converting bandsaw blades for use as bowsaw blades, I believe the modification process is more complicated than one might initially think. I have read that the tempered steel blades are hard to drill through, to make pin holes, without breaking the blade. I believe someone, maybe Winton?, mentioned heating the ends of the blade to remove the temper and then drilling. Sounds like more trouble than I would want to take on to to get a blade with heat treated, hard to modify, teeth that may not be ideal for the work?
    Why Woodjoy? ECE & Ulmia are considerably cheaper and have numerous blades from which to choose.
    Eric Gracka

  14. #44
    I'd go for a disston D8, #7, older atkins, ....any of those vintage saws that was straight where the tooth line was fairly close to being ready. I don't love the idea of a 5 1/2 point saw that's 22" long.

    But They can need a fair bit of tooth work - if you get one cheap and it's straight with decent teeth, you can get another one if you have to if you buy the wrong first saw.


    In terms of filing, I can only say find a saw that's got decent teeth (no missing teeth) that are similar in rake and joint it once lightly, and then file from back to front - do half a dozen or so teeth at a time stopping just when the joint runs out and a point is there.

    It's more important that you don't leave any flats than it is to be absolutely perfect height. Even height is nice, but flats on teeth are what really slow them down. Even height makes for a smoother cutting saw, but I'm not sure it's any faster.

    Then literally touch it up by a stroke or two strokes on each tooth and joint once every N times (5? 20? let your experience tell you when the saw is ready. The sure fire easiest way to tell if your tools need to be worked a different way is to actually use them).

    If the saw has too much grab, more relaxed rake on the next file. If not enough bite, more aggressive rake. you can treat a tooth with too aggressive of rake like a plane or chisel and microbevel the rake relaxed a little until the whole tooth is in line.

    A decent metal vise and two sprung boards makes a fine saw vise.


    I think I said it earlier, there's a big difference between trying to do a perfect job so that you can justify the trouble to ship a saw two ways and charge to file it vs. doing a decent job and having a good saw that works fast.

    And as far as the saws go, I have an 18" bandsaw, a portable tablesaw and a track saw. I just like handsawing better - it's physically satisfying and most of us need the exercise anyway. The more you saw, the faster and more accurate you get at it until it's not much of a handicap to hand saw something.

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Gracka View Post
    I've heard so much that is bad about bow (frame saws). But, having never used one, I think they are the most versatile. I've found Ulmia & Ece. Any recommendations.
    None from me. Only have one (an ECE 700mm rip saw), and while it's properly made, I can't rip with it as accurately or as fast as a 4 1/2 or 5 1/2 point D8, or #7 style saw.

    Bow saws vs. carpenters and backsaws is sort of like 6 of 1 and half dozen of another. If you can work better with one or the other, the issue is probably more familiarity than anything else.

    The big benefit of a bow saw is that there is nothing about it that's difficult to manufacture. Vintage carpenters saws are nearly works of art with double taper grinding and tensioning, but with a couple of split threaded rods and a purpose made or scrap made blade, you can have a good functional bowsaw that someone can manufacture on their own in a workshop.

    We just happen to have an enormous abundance of good carpenter and backsaws here, which sort of negates the advantage of being able to make a bowsaw inexpensively.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •