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Thread: The Sacrilege!

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Jones View Post
    This post actually helps vintage plane users as the prices will now plummet for vintage planes as followers dump them in favor of new ones.
    I'm rooting for that effect!!

  2. #17
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    I honestly didn't understand what he was driving at, was it that the same people who would wait for him to sharpen his plane blades couldn't do well with their own tuned vintage planes or that they didn't do well with his and preferred new planes instead?

    I use newly made planes, I like them and they work for me, I don't really consider them to be porsche's.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  3. #18
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    I have a couple old planes (a vintage stanley and a vintage millers falls) that I really like, but I like them more with a new LV chipbreaker and blade. Blasphemy, but there it is.
    The MF is a really nice jack plane. I put a camber on the stock blade, and use it as a scrub. With the boutique blade, it is a great smoother.
    Paul

  4. #19
    Im very experienced with power tools, but just under 2 yrs into hand tools. I now have a mix of new and old planes, three of which I restored myself. I get better at tuning them each time. With your help, my sharpening has improved dramatically. But I still reach for my NEW WR #3 more often than my MF #9. Why? The new plane performs better - full width shavings that are properly thin. I think its because I havent completely figured out the tuning YET. So for me, its VERY tempting to go buy a brand new plane that is nearly perfect or an old one thats been precision ground. Not trying to be contrary here - just trying to explain one new guys experience.

    Just an aside: Im learning hand craft a bit at a time by reading SMC and a swath of books, as well as video. From my knothole, I find Chris Schwartz very readable and Ive learned some things from him. In fact, I liked his Hand Plane Essentials a lot. Yesterday I ordered two more books Schwartz recommends for newbies - will they be worthwhile? I hope so, they are Hand Tools and Their Ways of Working, by Aldren Watson and Traditional Woodworking Hand Tools, by Graham Blackburn.

    As always, thanks for your help, advice and friendship,
    Fred
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by paul cottingham View Post
    , but I like them more with a new LV chipbreaker and blade.
    Goodness, not at all. It wasn't until a couple of years ago that most of the folks here had any respect for stock irons.

  6. #21
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    I set the way back machine for four years ago, Mr. Peabody: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...ad-as-I-tthink notice what that guy Weaver says, oh and that Hughto guy too!

    hehe

  7. #22
    Oh, I'd hate to read anything I said before I had the cap iron thing figured out.

    This was in one of my posts back then:

    I suspect that, after a recent discussion about this, if there is some major secret to unlock that makes a thin iron perform as well as a thicker iron, mr. Bailey was expecting a lot more in terms of technical setup and upkeep from the mechanic than most carpenters and non-cabinetmakers were prepared to deal with.
    Well, it turns out that the setup was pretty much just the cap iron. I still think the replacement irons are good gear, especially if someone is using stones that love them and taking lots of smoother shavings where such a thing as really really slow wear makes for lots and lots of thin shavings.

    But I am so enamored with good stock irons now because of how well they get along with my washitas (which are perfectly suitable once tearout is handled by the cap iron)....and I take very few thin shavings now. Just a few at the end.

    Funny how figuring out the cap iron eliminated all of that pondering.

  8. #23
    I bought the Watson book when Paul Sellers wrote about it on this blog. I have found myself reaching for that book as I acquire new (to me) tools and need to learn new techniques.

    I don't know what CS intended accomplish with his post. I found his abrupt conclusion odd. Now I want to try an expensive plane to see if I am going to be much better at the craft than I am with my $20 Stanley.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Voigt View Post
    Statistics lesson #1:
    Avoid drawing broad conclusions from non-representative samples.
    In this case, the better conclusion would be "the type of person who is willing to shell out a few thousand bucks and a week of time to take a CS class prefers new planes."
    Exactly.

    I think that too many here are reading into Chris' blog what they want to read. It's like a Rorschach card. The responses will reflect your inner psyche ....

    On a similar note: I will be participating this weekend in the Perth (LN - but no longer called LN) Tool Event. We have Terry Gordon (HNT Gordon planes), LN Australia, Carba-tec (agents for LV), Chris Vesper, Colen Clenton, Evan Dunstone (furniture maker), and yours truly, all at the Perth Wood School, who will have demonstrations as well. My focus will be to demonstrate the use of handtools. I plan to build Shaker-style side tables since this will be a good vehicle for demonstrating tools and their use (morticing, tenoning, sliding dovetails, drawers with dovetails and grooving and shooting ends, tapering of legs ...). I plan to build one on the Saturday and one on the Sunday (in reality I will likely be lucky to complete one over the two days - that is OK as I have already completed one ala Roy, which I can break down as needed).

    Now two issues occurred to me. The first is "which tools do I take along?". Do I take along the tools I have made, or do I take along the tools others can purchase? Should these be easily purchased (new, but they could be too expensive) or cheaply (on the second hand market, but may be difficult to obtain, and then they need to be fettled to be useful)? What are your thoughts?

    The problem with taking my tools is that they are not the same tools others might want to obtain. Vintage tools are fine in my book (I do have a bunch), but new tools are easier to find. Perhaps I could take both? However I do want the emphasis to be on joint-making, not tools, so I decided to take along a small mix of old and new tools.

    The second issue is I would like to provide help in using some tools, not just techniques with each, but setting them up to use optimally. This area is just a filler between demonstrations with building the tables. One is the setting up a smoother. I will have with me a HNT Gordon smoother (BD woodie), Veritas Small BUS, Stanley #3 with Veritas blade and chipbreaker (areas to tune, but predominantly setting the chipbreaker), and #3 LN with high angle frog. Any suggestions?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  10. #25
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    David,

    Slams against CS aside.
    (I suppose one person is allowed to detest another person and say so if they must.)

    As I read along here I was going to defend or maybe a better word for it is express my RESPECT for what you do and say about vintage planes and the fact that you have unlocked their potential and attempt to educate us lazies about it.

    That, as I understand it, you have been the modern plane route along with the infill route and have found a way to leave all that behind for the simplicity of the basic stock every man's (person's) hand plane is commendable.

    And the simplest sharpening method to go with it.

    That's good stuff in deed.

    A side note :
    It drives me crazy when I am around people who do the following; and I find it is, more often than not, sales people or manipulative people who do it.
    Not that you are that; YOU ARE NOT.
    anyway
    what drives me nuts is when some one says "absolutely" over and over to agree with what another has said or to sell them something. Especially when what they are agreeing to or selling is far short of 100 percent : good, useful, intelligent, sound, a good value . . . _______
    you fill in the blank.

    So . . . David
    I really respect what you have to offer.
    One little quibble though

    Change "just doesn't' to "usually doesn't".

    In my quest to conquer all the wood that was considered extreme I indeed found some definite utility in at least a couple of the "questionable improvement features" you list as being baseless.

    If it's just a little flatter, with an iron that's just a little thicker, and a little harder, and an alloy that's a little more wear resistant with an adjuster that's just a little finer and just add a pound or two....then I'll do better work with it. But that just doesn't end up being the case.


    OK . . . I've said too much so I will quit now.
    Sharpening is Facetating.
    Good enough is good enough
    But
    Better is Better.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post

    The second issue is I would like to provide help in using some tools, not just techniques with each, but setting them up to use optimally. This area is just a filler between demonstrations with building the tables. One is the setting up a smoother. I will have with me a HNT Gordon smoother (BD woodie), Veritas Small BUS, Stanley #3 with Veritas blade and chipbreaker (areas to tune, but predominantly setting the chipbreaker), and #3 LN with high angle frog. Any suggestions?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Hi Derek,

    Just to offer my thoughts:
    I would think the most informative info for beginners regarding the smoothers would be how to set up a wooden plane, and how to set up an old plane. the latter in order to give people confidence that there is nothing wrong with old tools. some might not have the ability or desire to spend 200$+ on a new one, but that shouldn't stop them!


    New 'perfect' planes like the LN and LV pretty much set themselves up maybe you could talk about freehand sharpening techniques for thin old blades, like in old Stanleys. like the circular micro bevel or the Paul Sellers way. I find the Sellers way (I call it that for lack of better term) especially effective with thin plane irons and chisels.

  12. #27
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    Derek, I'm always happy to give what little that I can . . .

    . . . in the way of pointers and advice.

    "which tools do I take along?". Do I take along the tools I have made, or do I take along the tools others can purchase? Should these be easily purchased (new, but they could be too expensive) or cheaply (on the second hand market, but may be difficult to obtain, and then they need to be fettled to be useful)? What are your thoughts?
    You couldn't handle a direct mind meld. You would be driven mad.
    Barking mad to use professional jargon.

    Here is a highly filtered inkling of what I am thinking . . .

    The tool question is inversely proportional. The least tools require the higher skill level.
    For the highest skill level, leaving all crutches behind, but not pleasing the vendors, I would say use this





    That's Spot, my pet rock portraying the role of "The Ultimate" expert's woodworking tool.

    But if you don't want to show off then maybe go for the non show-off route and use one of these.

    http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/f...arvinjack.aspx
    Last edited by Keith Outten; 04-11-2014 at 8:06 AM.
    Sharpening is Facetating.
    Good enough is good enough
    But
    Better is Better.

  13. #28
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    Location
    United Kingdom - Devon
    Posts
    503
    It is unlikely that anyone would be limited by a new or vintage plane. The choice of what the user prefers is their own choice. The only issue I ever see with vintage is that you normally need to do a small amount of work. To those with experience this is easy. I think if you are new buy one new decent plane and then buy your vintage using the new as your benchmark. If you prefer vintage you can then sell the new plane for as much as you bought it for. Once you have found your preferred type you can then get on with the job of making things. Only through making and practice will you find what works well for you.

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    The problem with taking my tools is that they are not the same tools others might want to obtain. Vintage tools are fine in my book (I do have a bunch), but new tools are easier to find. Perhaps I could take both? However I do want the emphasis to be on joint-making, not tools, so I decided to take along a small mix of old and new tools.
    gahhh...etiquette at a white collar tool show is to use the tools sold at the show, isn't it?

    Old and new is the nicest thing to do in terms of consideration for the newbies. They can make their own decision then.

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Winton Applegate View Post
    David,

    Slams against CS aside.
    (I suppose one person is allowed to detest another person and say so if they must.)

    As I read along here I was going to defend or maybe a better word for it is express my RESPECT for what you do and say about vintage planes and the fact that you have unlocked their potential and attempt to educate us lazies about it.

    That, as I understand it, you have been the modern plane route along with the infill route and have found a way to leave all that behind for the simplicity of the basic stock every man's (person's) hand plane is commendable.

    And the simplest sharpening method to go with it.

    That's good stuff in deed.

    A side note :
    It drives me crazy when I am around people who do the following; and I find it is, more often than not, sales people or manipulative people who do it.
    Not that you are that; YOU ARE NOT.
    anyway
    what drives me nuts is when some one says "absolutely" over and over to agree with what another has said or to sell them something. Especially when what they are agreeing to or selling is far short of 100 percent : good, useful, intelligent, sound, a good value . . . _______
    you fill in the blank.

    So . . . David
    I really respect what you have to offer.
    One little quibble though

    Change "just doesn't' to "usually doesn't".

    In my quest to conquer all the wood that was considered extreme I indeed found some definite utility in at least a couple of the "questionable improvement features" you list as being baseless.



    OK . . . I've said too much so I will quit now.
    I'm struggling a little bit to find something where a new tool allows someone to do finer work (presuming that the "old" tool it's compared to is undamaged).

    And don't accuse me of not being lazy. I can cut a good honest swath right through the definition of laziness

    I don't know that manipulative is quite right, but I did get sent to "time out" when I was in school for being an instigator. Sometimes I could tell people wanted to cause trouble, and they just needed someone to give them an idea on what to do. I usually steered clear of making the trouble on my own, though So if I can instigate the use of old tools, that's good. If someone's got no interest after getting the information, that's OK, too (which is where I differ from someone in sales - that and I usually stray away from giving advice that would provide any personal gain to me).
    Last edited by David Weaver; 04-11-2014 at 8:16 AM.

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