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Thread: The Sacrilege!

  1. #46

    My personal opinion only

    I have followed this thread with interest not because of the discussion of the main topic, but rather because of the attitudes expressed by those posting. I'll be right up front and say I haven't read Chris Schwarz's blog in a couple of years, nor anyone else's for that matter. I just don't have the time and besides, I'd rather work wood than BS and obsess about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. What I note is that there is disagreement with one man's opinion and a subtle underlying question of whether or not he has the right to express that opinion because of his status as a blogger, former magazine editor, and public personality. Right now, I'll make my bias clear. Chris Schwarz, or anyone else for that matter, is entitled to their opinion and the right to express it. On a forum like this one, as opposed to a blog, the only restrictions to that right are politeness, decency, and following Terms Of Service requirements. You as individuals have the right to disagree with his opinions and post that disagreement, but you have no right to restrict his right solely based on his profession or his status. Life is too short to get your jockeys or boxers in a twist because of something posted on the internet.

    For Derek. When I do demos of actually making something useful, my kit limitations are usually based on what I need rather than any consideration of whether or not it is a currently available item or an older used tool. You might have to make a different choice if you are being sponsored or having travel subsidized. The real golden rule being that he who has the gold makes the rules. For me it comes down to convenience, space and weight limitations, and quite often a whim. I don't really feel that I have to make rational reasoned choices all of the time. Any chance you might have a spare pet rock I could borrow Mister Applegate?
    Dave Anderson

    Chester, NH

  2. #47
    Join Date
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    Hi Dave, completely agree with you. I started this thread because I had the naughty feeling it might throw up some sparks. I'm afraid I like a bit of controversion. Overall, I have nothing against Chris Schwarz, on the contrary, I enjoy his writings. There is often something new or unexpected. I don't need to agree with everything.

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
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    Corcoran, MN
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    372
    My hobby, sometimes obsession, is woodworking. I am self taught with lots of help from books, magazines, forums, and trial-and-error.

    When, in 1990 I acquired a Paragon plane from Garrett Wade and a new Stanley block plane I was disappointed. No feathery shavings, but great chatter and chips. At this remove I don't know how much I suffered from poor technique or from poor tools. A new Lie Nielsen #62 low angle jack plane had me smiling, same technique and jig-bound sharpening, much better tool. I have since acquired lots of hand skills and am pleased by how often projects come together well. I remain an amateur and do not presume expertise.

    I have the money for new tools, L-N and Veritas, and enjoy them all. I have no need or desire to be a reenactor or fettler when I can buy contemporary tools that are wickedly fun 15 minutes out of the box.

    The irreverent and sharp out of the box Chris Schwarz has stimulated our woodworking community.

  4. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Hughto View Post
    Kind of a semantic quibble, no?
    Yes - my gripe is that it's one of those easy to say things that I hear a lot of people who have never made a plane repeat, and it's often used in the context of either the iron being the most important thing, and the rest of the parts being throw away. I just don't love generalizations like that. In something like a japanese plane, the iron will outlast the dai if the dai is conditioned with some regularity. In a western plane, the plane should outlast the iron. It leads to the notion that the iron is more important than the rest of the plane in japanese planes and the converse in western planes. In both cases, it's important that both parts are executed well enough as a plane (and not as a chisel), and that the aspects of the iron (and hopefully double iron) are made with respect to their use for planing (failure occurring due to wear) and not chiseling (failure often due to something else).

    I'm going down a rabbit hole here a little bit because it's an irk of mine that saying such a thing to beginners belies how important the design of the entire plane is.

  5. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post

    Now two issues occurred to me. The first is "which tools do I take along?". Do I take along the tools I have made, or do I take along the tools others can purchase? Should these be easily purchased (new, but they could be too expensive) or cheaply (on the second hand market, but may be difficult to obtain, and then they need to be fettled to be useful)? What are your thoughts?
    I think you should take all three (new, used, shop-made).

  6. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Anderson NH View Post
    You as individuals have the right to disagree with his opinions and post that disagreement, but you have no right to restrict his right solely based on his profession or his status.
    You're right, and my use of the term professional is a simplification of what I really mean. What I intend it to mean is someone who is focused on doing fine work and what it takes to learn to do fine work, as opposed to someone who makes most of their decisions or guidance on what is good for the first year or two that you're woodworking. There are a few (and Chris isn't the only one) who give a lot of advice that is biased in my opinion because they are involved in mostly doing work that is very basic and their bias leads them toward whatever makes the class go well, or whatever the people (in the context of this case) who literally wait for him to sharpen something would prefer.

    There are folks on the other side of the coin, like Tommy Mac, who spent all of his time initially, at least, discussing technique. I don't think tommy probably has as much freedom to say "makes no difference what you get" and advocate modifying inexpensive tools, as he used to do, but it is an entirely different mindset and the quality of work that he was advocating was much much higher, despite the fact that he was catering often to beginners in his comments.

    So, it's not necessarily professional or not, it really is a difference in collective opinions.

    I don't read chris's stuff very often at this point, and didn't read it when I was a beginner. I tried a couple of times (because half of the people I came across told me "you have to subscribe to this guy's blog") and subscribed to the blog for a while, but the collective difference in opinions, sent me going the other way. I don't begrudge anyone who really digs what he does and wants to do just what he's doing the right to love his opinions and follow them. I just find folks who do finer work and who talk more about the work and less about the tools to be a whole lot more inspiring.

  7. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Mack View Post

    I have the money for new tools, L-N and Veritas
    Me, too. It's not just about the means. I have to admit that when I started, I followed Charlesworth's sharpening video religiously, took notes and literally took them to the shop and followed them to prepare the first few lie nielsen planes that I got. King 800 and all. Took about 45 minutes. If lie nielsen did then what veritas does now to the backs of the irons, it probably would've been ten minutes or less. It's unusual for me to spend 45 minutes on a vintage tool, lapping the sole, and preparing the iron and cap iron.

    Different things resonate with different folks. What seems to be the clearest to me, though, is the folks who do the best work, and who have a grasp on design get to the point where their basic tool kit is filled out and they can make their own tools quickly when the need arises for something that can't be bought. Making bench planes and bench chisels is an unnecssary endeavor, but making detail tools or moulding planes, scrapers, etc that do specific functions (and that can be difficult to find on the open market) is entirely different.

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
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    NE Ohio
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    1,029
    I for one, think this has been a generally polite and useful discussion. The core debate, IMO, has been about the relative merits of vintage planes versus new premium planes. I like CS and his writing and I've learned a few things from him. However, I think what he writes and his possible motives are also very appropriate here. His work with PWW his blog, publishing and teaching all center around the very public association of him as a hand tool expert and pundit.
    Last edited by Daniel Rode; 04-11-2014 at 1:24 PM.
    -- Dan Rode

    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle

  9. #54
    David, I too find my inspiration in fine work though sometimes I also find elegance in simplicity. I will also admit to some frustration at times with the obsession here on tools as opposed to projects. In fact as a moderator on SMC for over 10 years and a participant in woodworking and hand tools forums for 20 years, I cringe every time I have to read and review a "Which widget should I buy thread?" mimicking the same information and opinions that I have often seen at least dozens of times before. Unfortunately that is the nature of the beast since new folks are always coming aboard and others moving on to other life interests. I do love tools though and in fact I'll be teaching a 3 hour class on wooden hand planes tomorrow for the Hand Tools Group of our local guild. Still though, it's my interest in 18th century furniture that floats the boat and I get excited every time someone posts a new piece here on the creek.
    Dave Anderson

    Chester, NH

  10. #55
    David,
    When I started in about 1972, I remember spending about a day and a half, on the back a new Stanley 2 3/8" in blade. It should probably have been sent back! The stone was a coarse/"fine" India.

    best wishes,
    David

  11. #56
    David - one of my early planes was a plastic handled stanley 5. I should probably call it a Satanly 5. I thought I was doing a friend a favor by giving it to him as a coarse plane to use. the frog seat on the casting was milled so that the frog would not sit square, and the iron had sides that were not close to parallel, and he being a mechanical engineer (with a lot of experience speccing things that had to be made to close tolerance) could not figure out which side he was going to try to be square to. When I saw him next, he wasn't happy with me! He had spent about 5 hours on the plane and given up. I didn't look at it closely, but now would seat the frog and probably just throw it away after examining such an issue.

    The flip side of my comment about preparing vintage planes quickly is that I've prepared two low-cost things that allow me to corral an iron's flatness issues quickly and lap a plane sole cheaply and quickly. They are also two things that are handy for tool making, which makes them worth most folks having/acquiring if they are going to go on to the level of making their own specialty tools. I almost never see anyone else who instructs beginners talking about them (a long glass lap - a "cabinet shelf" as the guy at the glass shop told me - 42" long float glass for $20, and a fixture made to hold irons so they can be flattened quickly).

    That said, I had the luxury of using a sharp tool from day 1, because the same friend who I tortured with the Satanly #5 said "you should buy a lie nielsen plane, and here is a sharpening video because they don't tell you how to sharpen it" (which made him furious, he considered your video to be something that should've been supplied with each plane given the price). I followed your instructions exactly, like I said above (taking notes and everything so I could do precisely what was instructed when I didn't have a TV available to look at), and I have never had to use a dull tool. For a couple of years, I followed the forum discussions figuring that maybe my tools weren't as sharp as they should be because I had no trouble getting a sharp iron on the first try (the old "maybe I don't know what I'm doing, everyone else says it's difficult") - that's of course turned out to not be the case - they were always plenty sharp.

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    San Bernardino
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    DavidW,

    This may have been something you have shared before, but will you expound on or post a picture of (a fixture made to hold irons so they can be flattened quickly).

    Thanks.

  13. #58

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Houston TX
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    548
    Derek, I believe your choice of "tools to take" covers most of the types/styles of tools apt to be used by the attendees, and shouldn't upset the sponsors. Your second issue involves "what to teach" as a filler, which I assume will be to individuals or small groups. How to set up a tool is more than simply following the instruction manual...if one is even present. How does a novice WWer know when or if he has properly prepared and set up the tool? Having a knowledgable person demonstrate the "how", and then getting to experience the "feel" of a properly set up tool....priceless.

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
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    Shorewood, WI
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    897
    I really don't understand the fuss. Schwarz made an observation that though he has often said that older tools perform as well as new tools, some of his beginning students who have old tools tend to use his new ones. Those students have a chance to try out something that's very pretty, works well, was sharpened by someone else, and that they don't already have. Why not?

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