Hard Arkensas stones - and no-soak waterstones

[Matthew N. Masail]

This is likely to be my last stone thread, I have changed into -practical- mode.
I have officially decided to change to a no-soak sharpening set-up. but I need a little help choosing the stones.


at the moment all my stones are soaker, but I am lucky enough to have a friend importing tools from Japan so I have a 10K Gokumyo stone on it's way without the need
to lay out any capital (stealth gloat). the 10K in no soak, so with the 10K in mind I'll need a 1K and something in-between.


this is what I thought:


1k shapton


3k Ohichi from LN OR 5K Superston - this is what I most unsure about


10K Gokumyo


I am also considered trying a oil stone set-up, especially for sharpening chisels. I read a few times about oil stones giving a more smooth controllable edge on push chisels, and I remember having that experience once when I first started out and had a cheap 3stone thing-a-majig with an oil stone. I would like to get that back on chisels.
at the moment I'm looking at the TFWW inventory and at "Dan's stones"


has anyone tried the Norton Black or Hard Translucent Arks from TFWW?


what is the difference between an India or soft Ark?


will these do well with new O1 and also the stuff in Narex chisels?




Thanks !

[David Weaver]

This is likely to be my last stone thread, I have changed into -practical- mode.
I have officially decided to change to a no-soak sharpening set-up. but I need a little help choosing the stones.


at the moment all my stones are soaker, but I am lucky enough to have a friend importing tools from Japan so I have a 10K Gokumyo stone on it's way without the need
to lay out any capital (stealth gloat). the 10K in no soak, so with the 10K in mind I'll need a 1K and something in-between.


this is what I thought:


1k shapton


3k Ohichi from LN OR 5K Superston - this is what I most unsure about


10K Gokumyo


I am also considered trying a oil stone set-up, especially for sharpening chisels. I read a few times about oil stones giving a more smooth controllable edge on push chisels, and I remember having that experience once when I first started out and had a cheap 3stone thing-a-majig with an oil stone. I would like to get that back on chisels.
at the moment I'm looking at the TFWW inventory:


has anyone tried the Norton Black or Hard Translucent Arks from TFWW?


what is the difference between an India or soft Ark?


will these do well with new O1 and also the stuff in Narex chisels?




Thanks !

I don't know anything about ohishi stones. The best 3k stone that I have come across...bar none...is the chosera 3k. It's like two different stones. It's a super hard stone without being soaked, and it's a smooth stone if it's soaked, and it can be fine either way.

The shapton pro 1k is the 1k stone I would use for no soak - it still doesn't have a no-soak equal that I'm aware of.

I've had both nortons that you're asking about, multiples of the trans and one of the blacks. They are good stones. I think Dan's finishers are better, and by a noticable amount. They are finer, but they are also more expensive. Dan's also gives a finer lap to their stones when they're new, so there is an illusion of comparing the two at the outset that the dans stones are much much finer, but even after you get past that and break stones in, or lap them again once they've been broken in, the dans stones are finer.

That said, you could easily go from a 3k chosera to the black or trans arkansas (the chosera 3k, IIRC, is a 4 micron stone, so it doesn't leave deep scratches) and get an arkansas edge without having the finer stones in the progression. You'll probably want to sharpen a little differently with the ark stone than you do with waterstones (more focus on the very edge and less so much of a method of just rubbing until everything is shiny).

Brief summary of the soft ark vs. the india:
* india - aluminum oxide abrasive, vitrified bond - sort of like a coarser (at first) very hard modern waterstone, but it works better with oil than water. After settling in some, they will still cut anything, but a bit finer than their particle size would suggest. E.g., a brand new fine india will cut much coarser than a 1000 grit waterstone, but once it's broken in, you could probably get it to cut finer than a 1000 grit waterstone, so it's a suitable substitute for that level of sharpening. Harder than any waterstone I've used, and with diligence and freehand technique can be used without flattening.
* soft ark - a novaculite stone with lower density (due to a more porous matrix). Cuts softer vintage steels as well as an india, and leaves an edge much less harsh. Unless it's constantly refreshed it will stall on harder or more alloyed steels (like stuff that's 62 hardness, or A2, etc), but it can be refreshed and work on those, too. If speed is important, it will probably be slower than the india, but the trade off is that if left alone, it can work very fine and leave a more refined edge than an india. The fact that the india will cut anything, is more cheap, and is less sensitive to technique is probably why it's replaced soft arks for the most part.

I prefer to have both. neither is expensive. The finishers are where you end up dumping money.

I'm assuming this is a "money is some object" scenario (meaning that you are not trying to buy the absolute cheapest thing, but you don't want to spend $5000 either). If bought right, hard arkansas stones are a good place to park your money for a while. You can use them for a long time, use up very little of them, and probably sell them in nominal terms for about as much as you've paid. The same probably won't be true of waterstones, so buy waterstones purely on utility (what you can get out of them right now) and less on experimentation or long-term view.

Oilstones won't have trouble with O1 or Narex chisels. The only thing you'll notice is that the wire edge that fans out on chrome vanadium steel gets longer and holds on more persistently, so you have to be more deliberate about using it.

The one thing that doesn't get discussed often is that a finishing oilstone does a very good job on japanese chisels if they are brought to it in a proper state. The steel is hard enough that it is cut less deep than a soft western tool or knife, and the edge that's left is very nice. The backing steel or wrought on the japanese tools will sort of clean the surface of an ark stone, too, and freshen it up just a little if used regularly (but not enough to make it coarse).

For the natural stone nut, a piece of owyhee or biggs jasper to remove the burr or most of it is super nice, and it's something that can be had here in the states for about $10 shipped with some looking (preferably a slab that's cut and polished).

Anyway, usually if someone is bothered by the speed of an oilstone, it's a matter of technique and not the stone.

And I do agree that the feel of an oilstone edge is less waxy and slick and more governed when doing something like paring bevels. Paring directly across endgrain still tends to favor whatever is sharpest, but a super duper quarter micron type edge on a parer makes bevels easy to overcut.

[Tony Zaffuto]

For the natural stone nut, a piece of owyhee or biggs jasper to remove the burr or most of it is super nice, and it's something that can be had here in the states for about $10 shipped with some looking (preferably a slab that's cut and polished).

Where do you get the "Owyhee" or "Biggs Jasper" David?

Thanks,

T.

[David Weaver]

Tony - ebay. There seems to be no shortage of folks digging up rocks, slicing them in 1/4" layers and making them flat and pretty much ready to use right away, as long as you tend toward stuff that is advertised as such (rough means the rocks are in a state that you'd never want to buy them unless you could diamond saw and polish them yourself because they are monstrously hard and even diamond saw marks would take forever to get out).

Anyway, a nice flat long and wide slab (use the term "slab" in your search term) that doesn't have holes or cracked out bits in it for about $10-$15 (shipped) gives you something you can epoxy to a more substantial substrate for support and then your off and running.

Water or WD40 works great on them, and you can slurry them if you have a diamond hone, but I think they are better used in their natural hard smooth state to remove a wire edge and leave a polish.

[David Weaver]

One other comment about soft arkansas stones. There is an enormous difference in the soft arkansas stones marketed from the different mines, a much bigger difference in the less dense stones than there is in the hard. If you really want a soft ark and you want one that will cut quickly, the one that natural whetstone markets is the best (and it's also the cheapest - lucky that).

[Eric Gracka]

My Opinion (don't care for sand stones because of their expense & wear):

1. Diamond - fast cutting, great for flattening (can't use with sand stones?), too expensive
2, Sandpaper - very expensive, a lot is needed for full-time wood workers
3. Arkansas - expensive (you have to find the right quarry - a lot of poor quality out there) http://www.danswhetstone.com/stone_grades_101.htm
4. Crystolon, Carborundum (Norton's name), also known as Silicon Carbide (SiC), is fast cutting & cheap (use for nicks & major flaws, also have finer stones). http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/No...x-3-P24C5.aspx
5. India (Norton's name) - most economical and a little elbow grease required (best buy for the buck) http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Oil-Stones-C5.aspx

Reputable suppliers deliver oil stones already presoaked.

"Lubricants" - you don't want a lubricant when sharpening, rather, you want a cutting fluid (ask any machinist). Why do you think oil is used in engines; it's to stop the the pistons from making contact with the cylinder walls. Do you think that pistons want to scrape the cylinder?

This is what you use for oil stones:
a. Mineral oil
b. Baby Oil (if you don't like the scent, get unscented - $3.50 in Canada) http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sha...0faq%2005.html

This what you don't use for an oil stone:
a. kerosene
b. lamp oil
c. turpentine
d. varsol
e. paint stripper

In particular, kerosene is a neuro-toxin.

Oils create a barrier between the tool and the sharpener; they cause the tool to hydro-plane. You'll get your result with a lot of elbow-grease. What you want is a fluid (called a cutting fluid), that makes intimate contact with the cutter, and allows the cutting agent to wash away the metal fillings.

The word "lubricant" should not be used. The words "cutting agent" should be used.

My preference is:
a. SiC coarse (for nicks)
b. India Medium or Fine (clean up scratch marks)
c. Arkansas Black Surgical for the polish

If I were on a budget, and in a hurry, I'd get the coarse, medium and fine India's, but I think the already mentioned site has India's and Crystolons at the same price http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/No...x-3-P24C5.aspx so, I might pick my chose - it works for me.

If you're interested in some scientific evaluations (and there are a few pages): http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/index.html This article suggest that you don't strop, contrary to every sharpening site.

Anyways, use what works for you, and you're comfortable with. Every man his his working preference, but just for fun, puruse this post.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Eric, I am pursuing with much fun ! I ordered a 8X3X1 soft ark from the vendor recommended by David, and a 6X2x1\2 black ark from Dan's whetston. I was lucky and found
the black ark selling new on the bay for less than retail. I think it might be Dan's themselves selling, because the seller had like 16 of them. they might be smaller but more than enough to freehand on, and like 1\4 of the price on a 8X3.

[David Weaver]

If you're interested in some scientific evaluations (and there are a few pages): http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/index.html This article suggest that you don't strop, contrary to every sharpening site.

This isn't good advice if you're using oilstones and stopping after using a surgical black.

Brent's comparison for stropping, iIRC (I can't find it on there) was 0.5 micron abrasive film vs. stropping with various compounds that had much larger abrasives than 0.5 micron. The result is predictable. Given those circumstances, I would also agree, partially because the modern deep cutting abrasives don't leave an organized wire edge like arkansas stones do. Had brent used something like iron oxide, he would've found a refinement of his edge (one that's not needed), and if he would've used 0.3 chrome oxide, the same, and 0.5 probably a little bit more also.

But, a clean (clean is very important) leather strop will significantly improve the edge that comes right off of a black arkansas stone, even if you alternate the final strokes lightly back and forth (which is how you'd get the finest edge without a strop - to thin or remove part of the wire edge).

At any rate, if a leather strop is clean and smooth (not all leather is), it will improve any edge to some extent, even one that comes off of graded chromium oxide powder (which cuts finer than the 0.5 micron film abrasives).

For practical purposes, I'd put the usefulness of a strop as very high coming off of an oilstone and not quite as useful coming off of any of the variety of synthetic stones that cut 1 micron or smaller, or maybe even 2.

The coarse white and yellow stropping compounds should be used in place of a finish stone, and not after them (and they are excellent for carvers who make shaped slips). I don't think they have a great amount of usefulness on straight edged tools.

Brent's site is good, but not everything on it can just be applied universally without context. His plane wear studies can be considered definitive - esp. if you're talking about an iron used for smoothing.

Mineral oil, especially of the light variety, is a nice lubricant to use on coarser stones - the abrasive is tall enough to get through the lubricant, and some lubricant protects it from getting broken down prematurely. A water displacer (in lieu of a cutting fluid, i don't know how different they are) like WD 40 is nice for the finest stones. Stropping following the finest stones on a clean strop is very beneficial. The best way to make sure the strop stays clean is to wipe off any metal particles from the chisel or iron before stropping. A strop can be oiled and wiped off to get most of it off, though, and in the event it gets very bad, scraped with a card scraper to remove the top layer of leather and crud.

I didn't really get into all of this stuff until I started straight razor shaving, which makes very small improvements seem very large.

[Matthew N. Masail]

What about using water or soapy water with natural Arkensas stones?

[David Weaver]

You can do it. I don't like it as much for tools. Try soap and water before oil. It's a lot harder to go back to water once a stone has been oiled.

[Matthew N. Masail]

David, if one was to flatten oil stones (fine india and arkensas) like Larry Williams does, regularly, would it damadge the likes of a atoma400? maybe a coarser Iwood plate?

as for the water stones I almost ordered a Pro 1K and Cho 3K, but then thought maybe a Cho800 would be a good option, have you used one to compare to the pro1k?

[Noah Wagener]

Dan's stones get universal praise but i have also read that anything quarried more recently than the 1970's is inferior. Is a new Dan's finisher as good as a vintage stone?

Could that Jasper be used instead of a clean leather strop? Is there a reason leather was used as it seems soft and would put the edge in contact with the strop rather than just one plane or the other.

I have just been using the Norton honing oil for everything. do i need something different for a finsiher (not that i have one)?

Matthew, someone at Dan's told me that one of those ebay sellers is not selling Dan's stones.She thought the ones from Diversions gifts were authentic which sounds like the one you got.

[Steve Voigt]

A comment (for Eric), and a question (for anyone):

There is no hard and fast difference between lubricants and cutting fluids. All oils lubricate, and all oils will carry away heat and swarf. The difference is viscosity. Heavy viscosity oils will do too much lubricating, so they will still work, just not as well.
By the way, kerosene is a fantastic cutting fluid; in the machine shop it's one of only two things I know of that is effective for machining copper (the other is trichlorethylene). But you're right to discourage its use, both because of the toxicity, and also it's super flammable.

My question: Walmart sells "intestinal lubricant" mineral oil for $1.49 a pint. Anybody tried it? Is this the thin stuff? Or is there a better source?

[David Weaver]

Dan's finishers are a lot like the finer vintage finishers. I don't have any love for their soft arkansas stones, but their finishers are great.

[David Weaver]

I think the intestinal stuff is fairly thick. The light machine oil for food prep machines is good, and is similar to the stuff that norton sells as "honing oil".

At 1.49, though, it's worth a try. There are so many ways to use the mineral oil elsewhere, even just in place of overpriced camelia oil.