stropping

[David Weaver]

Winton, most of the logical about how bad strops are is exactly as you've shown, pictures that in practice don't really work the way the pictures do.

I can't say too much about the sellers type of stropping where he's substituting a loaded strop for a finish stone, but with a bare leather strop, there's not enough wear for those pictures to be relevant.

If you run an iron up through a one micron stone, a bare strop and light pressure will still make an iron more keen, though with little practical gain.

If you finish with something else, the strop will improve the edge significantly - increasing uniformity, which is a good thing.

I can only repeat what kees and warren say, and add that you can misuse a strop and create a problem with it, but in practice, there is a significant gain where a strop is beneficial. I went around for several years totally obsessed with guarding geometry and didn't really understand what a bare leather strop does until I started shaving with a straight razor.

[Daniel Rode]

I've been reading this with keen interest. I initially started stropping because I didn't have a fine enough stone for finishing. The process was a bit like Seller's but without the convex bevel. I glued some thin suede leather to MDF and charged it with CrO2 and hit the edge with 20-30 strokes after the 5k stone.

I've since bought a 15k finishing stone. I think I get a more consistent edge from the stone than I did from using the strop. For me, consistency is really important. I'm beginning to get the best consistent results by lightly stropping with a few strokes after the 15k stone. I'll also go to the strop or the 15k + strop to touch up the edge quickly between full re-honing.

I don't have much theory or math behind this method. It's more a feel for how the chisel or plane is cutting. I've tried various things people here suggest and this is what's working for me today.

[Terry Beadle]

There's a feller on youtube that uses a piece of newspaper to do the final stropping. I think after the use of a 6K stone. I've tried it on kitchen knives and it seems to work. I don't know what grit newsprint equates to but I'll bet it's really fine. Now my taco tomato chunks are precisely cut and later ground on old teeth...ie Mine ! Hoot!

He puts the newspaper scrap, one thickness, onto the stone and then strops a bit, moves to an area not used yet on the page of newsprint, and then strops a bit more.

Any one know what the grit is on the newsprint?

[paul cottingham]

I think it is interesting that Sellers at least appears to be stropping with a great deal of force. This may be possible (without dubbing) due to his convex edge, I'm really not sure.

I strop after an 8000, probably more due to obsessiveness than necessity. I should try a lighter touch, I suspect I will get better results that way.

[Daniel Rode]

I've tried Seller's method with and without the convex bevel. The up side is that you never have to re-grind when the micro-bevel gets too wide. It works but I never felt like I could get the chisel or plane iron back to a know point with a specific angle and sharpness. To be fair, I have the same issue hand sharpening with a primary/secondary bevel but I can use a guide to get the consistency I want.

If I were able to do it consistently, I'd probably switch to the single convex bevel. At least for chisels. In practice, I think it's simpler than using dual bevel.

I think it is interesting that Sellers at least appears to be stropping with a great deal of force. This may be possible (without dubbing) due to his convex edge, I'm really not sure.

I strop after an 8000, probably more due to obsessiveness than necessity. I should try a lighter touch, I suspect I will get better results that way.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I generally always strop. And through the years, I've gotten to the point where I don't think about how I strop! I just do it! If I try to remember what is supposedly the right or wrong way, I screw up. Washita, to hard arkansas to a few licks on the strop. Hair popping sharp UNLESS I stop to think did so and so say to do it this way or did so and so say not to do it this way.

[Ryan Mooney]

Any one know what the grit is on the newsprint?

Depends on the filler used: http://www.specialtyminerals.com/fil...A-AT-PB-42.pdf
Not sure what all's used for newsprint, probably mostly one of the calcite minerals would be the largest of the abrasive size.

[Jim Matthews]

In theory you are right. In practice though, you shouldn't forget that millions of woodworkers over the centuries have stropped their edges. Not all of them were stupid, I guess.

I dunno. I'm pretty dense.
Just ask my kids, they'll confirm it.

I think the strop is a touch up step.
I can use it repeatedly, before the iron needs to go back to the stone.

The "give" or resilience of the leather in a strop means that the abrasive isn't cutting
the way the it will on a harder medium. I can't speak to how it works on MDF or other substrates.

Leather on a wooden block is enough to keep me going between honing sessions,
without transferring any mess to my bench.

[Jim Matthews]

Buy a pack of scraps from a local belt maker, or try Harry Epstein.

Apply to a flat block of hardwood with contact adhesive.

I made mine with the rough side facing up.

I like to have a block about 10 inches long, 4 inches (or so) wide.

[Winton Applegate]

how the chisel or plane is cutting

It may come as a surprise but you CAN NOT group chisels and plane blades in the same sharpening category.
Carving chisels are for the most part happy after using a strop EVEN ON THE SUEDE STROP.

Not so the plane blade.

Shaving can not be compared to planing purple heart. See drawing of soft material conforming to the roundy blade.

As I said no real energy for all this. David and I have crossed swords on this until no body even watches the blood bath any more.
He is right for the work he does.
I am right for the silly hard woods I learned on.
If any one wants to experiment try the silly hardwoods and no strop then the strop. Not a few swipes but a table top's worth.
Relax for every thing else. If you have to . . . I suppose . . .

[David Weaver]

Side comment from tonight, by chance (no really, earlier and not after I read your post, though I did have to actually go take pictures after I read your post).

Early on, I got hooked on HSS because I made a couple of infills and planed a bunch of cocobolo, but I didn't probably give the carbon steel an objective chance. Especially in the context that most of us won't use stuff like cocobolo very often (especially not me now, it's kind of a waste of money).

But with all of this talk lately about double iron planes, it seemed like it might be a nice time to build a coffin smoother. I don't even like coffin smoother. About 4 years ago, I bought a 4x9x9 cocobolo blank that looked close to quartered to make an infill smoother. I'd rather not work it for a smoother, so it might be enough for two coffin smoothers and wedges and it's actually dry now.

Using my washita only, I was able with a stock stanley iron (1920s maybe?) to face two sides of the block so they are square. Ripped it by hand, too. Certainly it's not a tabletop, but I think I could plane a tabletop without problems.

I had been under the impression that the washita might not have enough spank to get the edge to where it needs to be in terms of sharpness. Plus, if you plane cocobolo much, you know that there are bits of it super hard and then bits that must not be because it tears pretty easily.

Anyway, this plane acquitted itself well tonight, a lot better than I thought it would. I still have three planes with HSS irons, but I think I'll do this whole plane with vintage tools - carbon steel.

Eye opening.

(i did strop the edge on bare leather).

P1030674.jpgP1030669.jpg

I don't remember any knock down drag outs over this, maybe we had a discussion about absolute sharpness? (sure thing, horse butt that's broken in until it's reflective will bring you an edge you won't experience in woodworking).

My desire for wondersteel* is long gone now. If I had an iron that wouldn't hold an edge long enough for me to tolerate (which can be a problem in glinty cocobolo), I'd just take thicker shavings.

* there is still something super wonderful about hand forged carbon steel irons, that's the kind of wondersteel I like.

[Winton Applegate]

We don't just read a book and follow a recipe on how to sharpen.

In the words of Sherlock Holmes, written by Conan Doyle who based his Sherlock Character to a large extent on Dr. Bell who mentored Doyle

Some detectives fail to rise in their field due to a lack of imagination and visualization.

Can you gentlemen at least for a moment consider that there could possibly be a level of edge QUALITY . . . AS SHARP as a leather stropped edge but with qualities beyond a leather stropped edge ? One that resists edge deformation better, that stays sharp longer before it begins to leave chatter marks from dulling due to less dubbing from the sharpening process and so has more time to dub from actually cutting through wood ?

And before I leave this purgatory of minutia let me submit for your consideration . . .
how many Japanese wood workers have you seen working in the traditional ways who strop?

PS: As far as whether the old dudes were smart or not . . . I bet a lot smoked cigarettes . . . we now know that is DUMB to do. They heated their shops with wood. If every body in a city did that we would all be sick or dead . . . so they were poisoning them selves and their neighbors (substitute coal for wood and you have what happened in London) . . . that is dumb. They worked with what they had and did the best they could with what they had. . . maybe. . . maybe not . . ..


We know better now. If they had and knew what we do they may have proceeded differently.

[Kees Heiden]

The moral of this story: Do not make tabletops from purple heart!

[Winton Applegate]

Hi David,

My post before this one is for Kees and the guys. Not for you particularly. You have done all the possible options of sharpening to know EXACTLY what you need from your sharpening. As I said in other threads I totally respect that.

The cocobolo is BEAUTIFUL and I look forward to your plane. Hey . . . since you won't like it when you get it done

I don't even like coffin smoother.

. . . can I have it ?



ha, ha, ha

What stood out though in your photos for me was that your plane is as large as the surface you are planing. Run that plane blade down a plank five or eight feet long and a foot wide ,
of a similar wood
(though I have never had any trouble planing cocobolo)
to take off a significant amount of wood and all this 'SILLY minutia" that I am attempting to get the others to at least consider,
who have not done all the research that you have, ;
will begin to look less minute and more substantial.

[Winton Applegate]

Kees,
The moral of YOUR story is don't get more edge life out of each of your trips to the sharpening paraphernalia just keep doing your one trick.