Living "Off the Grid"

[Mike Henderson]

The problem with solar and no batteries is if everybody depends on the grid when the sun isn't shining then the power companies have to have a lot of power on standby for when the sun goes away. Many power plants can't just be turned on and off based on power demand. Coal power plants typically have to run 24x7 because it takes a long time to bring the plant on or offline. I toured a coal plant once and they claimed if the generator ever stopped turning that the metal shaft would flat spot due to the immense weight. (I have no idea how they ever did work on the generator.)

If you look at electricity demand, it's generally greater during the daytime than in the evening or at night - this is especially true in southern states in the summer, but it's true even without that. Solar allows the electric company to not have to bring peaking generators on line during the day to help meet the increased demand. There's still a drop in usage after about midnight, but overall, it allows the electric companies to run their generators at a more constant power output than if solar was not in the mix.

Mike

[Leo Graywacz]

I think a lot of people think they would like to live "off the grid" until they are faced with the reality of it. No flush toilets, no electricity, no hot running water just to begin the list. Those that actually do it may have experienced something that drove them to it or as some have mentioned, they may have mental issues though not crazy.

What??? How do you figure?

Off the grid means no connection to the local utilities, not abandonment of everything modern.

Off the grid doesn't mean you can't have a generator or a solar farm, doesn't mean you can't have a well or a flush toilet. You can have all the modern conveniences of life and be off the grid.

Off the grid is more of being independent of the gov controlled everything.

[Brian Elfert]

In the late 1980s I went on a trip with the Boy Scout troop to a cabin on an island all the way north in Minnesota. This was winter so we skied in about 11 miles across the ice.

The island had two cabins. One looked like a modern home with all the amenities of home. It had generators for electricity and running water with a flush toilet (in the summer only). The folks staying there must have hauled in 100+ gallons of gas by snowmobile. (Gas was still pretty cheap then.) The only thing it didn't have was a phone. I'm not sure how the place was heated. Propane hauled in maybe. The other cabin we stayed in was totally rustic with a wood stove for heat, an outhouse, and a lantern for light. It did have a regular propane stove and a propane fridge.

This just shows how you can have a modern home with modern amenities totally off grid.

[Roger Feeley]

+1 on what Mike said. I spoke with a lobbyist for the electric companies once. He said that the electric utilities here in Kansas kind of like solar for two reasons:
1. It's more predictable than wind. When the wind is gusty, the power output fluctuates wildly and it's harder to balance the system. With solar, changes due to clouds are slower and easier to compensate for.
2. Solar tends to produce the most energy when the most energy is needed.

My idea is not to put very much back into the system in a net-metering situation. I mostly want to just take the edge off. That's why I use the term 'grid-friendly'.

[Larry Edgerton]

If you look at electricity demand, it's generally greater during the daytime than in the evening or at night - this is especially true in southern states in the summer, but it's true even without that. Solar allows the electric company to not have to bring peaking generators on line during the day to help meet the increased demand. There's still a drop in usage after about midnight, but overall, it allows the electric companies to run their generators at a more constant power output than if solar was not in the mix.

Mike

http://www.consumersenergy.com/content.aspx?id=6985

This is a Consumers Power facility that uses the excess power generated at night to create a large battery in its simplest sense. Clever, predictable, yet simple.

Larry

[Tom Stenzel]

I toured a coal plant once and they claimed if the generator ever stopped turning that the metal shaft would flat spot due to the immense weight. (I have no idea how they ever did work on the generator.)

Brian, "flat spot" was a poor choice of words. The shafts will bow between bearings if not spun for a length of time. The turbine and generator have to be spun at low RPM until the droop straightens out before being run up into operation. That can be hours. Starting up a generator doesn't happen quickly.

-Tom

[Tom Stenzel]

http://www.consumersenergy.com/content.aspx?id=6985

This is a Consumers Power facility that uses the excess power generated at night to create a large battery in its simplest sense. Clever, predictable, yet simple.

Larry

Hi Larry,

The problem with the Ludington pumped storage you only get 70% of the energy back that you put into it. When it was built the plan was that Consumers would build a nuclear plant at Midland that would supply and fill Ludington during low demand periods and Ludington would take care of daytime peak needs. It was a good plan and would have maximized the efficiency of the nuke plant. They would have made a good pair.

After huge cost overruns the Midland plant ended up being built as a conventional coal plant. Consumers Energy never did get the benefit from Luidington that they had hoped for.

-Tom

[Leo Graywacz]

70% energy retrieval is better than throwing the energy away 100%.

[Frank Drew]

What??? How do you figure?

Off the grid means no connection to the local utilities, not abandonment of everything modern.

Off the grid doesn't mean you can't have a generator or a solar farm, doesn't mean you can't have a well or a flush toilet. You can have all the modern conveniences of life and be off the grid.

I agree.

Off the grid is more of being independent of the gov controlled everything.

My utility companies are private enterprises, not government entities.

[Jim Matthews]

Off the grid is more of being independent of the gov controlled everything.

If you don't use public conveyance, cash or communications - perhaps.
As soon as you're consuming things that travel by road, rail or air - not so much.

It's easy to confuse living small with the dead end road that lead to Ruby Ridge or Waco.
The intent is clearly not the same.

If someone within ballistic range has holed up and pointed weapons at the rest of us, it's no longer a private matter.

[Jim Matthews]

My utility companies are private enterprises, not government entities.

Mine, too.
Not that it makes them any more responsive, reliable or cheaper...
they own the lines and pipes, that makes them a defacto monopoly.

That's SO much better than the stranglehold wielded by public utilities.

* pfshht *

https://www.publicpower.org/

Some of our younger contributors may not have a clear grasp on how
public funding made rural electrification possible, and how a Nationwide
infrastructure investment strung lines to the remaining homes that were left out.

http://newdeal.feri.org/tva/tva10.htm

Anybody that thinks living off the grid is a great idea hasn't washed clothes by hand
or carried water. Every modern, thriving economy uses power - and lots of it.

Those that don't tend to have several less attractive features in common.

[Jim Matthews]

All this fancy livin' is a relatively new phenomenon.

You forgot awesome.
And desirable - the first thing most developing countries deploy
is television, followed by washing machines and refrigeration.
http://www.prweb.com/releases/commer...eb11735949.htm

[Jim Matthews]

Far better to prep for disaster by getting to know your neighbors and making friends.

That must be what these people are doing; the encampments surrounded by razor wire,
the deployed weaponry, the reluctance to contribute while our "doomed" economy still functions.

I wonder what portion of the US GDP goes to buying dried meals, unfit to eat?

[David Weaver]

Well, I'm not really picking sides to that extent. I think that's applying a label appropriate for a few to all, and not fairly.

I think the biggest threat from a large part of "non participants" is that they may make a trip to the ER for eating some of that unfit meat you mentioned.

[Ryan Mooney]

I think the biggest threat from a large part of "non participants" is that they may make a trip to the ER for eating some of that unfit meat you mentioned.

My one roommate in College was from someplace also fairly rural (I'll leave the exact location out because its irrelevant but northern US) and told me a story about a fellow in his town who lived/worked at the dump. Apparently this gent was a scavenger of the most primitive sense and would collect road kill, etc.. as it came in for victuals. One day my roommate and his brother were hauling some stuff to the dump for their folks and saw that there was a huge cloud of flies around the back of his cabin/shack/whatever and being somewhat concerned they stopped by to see if he was ok. Turns out all was fine but "yeah you're probably right that deer is getting to ripe to eat cause the dogs quit eating it a couple of days ago". So apparently with sufficient conditioning the human digestive system can handle meat that is so ripe even the dogs wouldn't eat it (and I've seen dogs eat some astonishingly foul stuff).