Living "Off the Grid"

[Andrew Joiner]

I don't know of anyone who lives off grid year-round in a home. I fantasized about it in the 60's and 70's when they called it self sufficiency. I was growing up and the little responsibility I had felt like such a burden. A piece of land and a log cabin seemed like a dream life. Still does in a way, but now I'm older and either spoiled and lazy or just wiser. I got real responsible in the 80's and retired at age 40 so I could travel and windsurf.

I lived in a van most of the time for the first few years of retirement. I had a house that I rented out. I loved windsurfing so much that I was willing to sacrifice most of the comforts of conventional life. To live simply and be where the wind was made it worth it. The freedom to drive to warm Texas from the frozen north-land every fall was a tremendous thrill.

I slept in a new van that I converted. Just a bed and windsurf gear storage. Slept on the beach,or on a quiet side road. I could only live that way for something I'm passionate about. With windsurfing I'd sail all day and be so tired and content that I was happy to eat a simple meal and go to sleep when it got dark. I have many friends who still live in vans for sports they love. I can't see living "off grid" or in a van unless you had something you loved to keep you busy all day. It would get to boring.

I gave up living in a van when I met my wife who had a nice house overlooking the windy Columbia Gorge. She's also beautiful and her house had a hot shower.

[Jim Matthews]

I don't question the desire to live simply.

It's the relentless gathering of useless junk that's problematic.
Hermits don't carry bags.

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Living off the grid implies two things;
* you supply your own needs, as best you can.

That's easier to do in arid climates with plenty of sun.

* You're involved with your neighbors,
it's impossible for one person, let alone a family
to manage everything on their own.

Amish communities are a successful example of how it can work, over generations.

The downside in the isolation is the shallow gene pool that results, and the tragic
consequences born by children. (IE, Hereditary deafness on Martha's Vineyard.)

Anyone that tells you isn't telling you straight.

Preppers and their close cousins, the hoarders aren't attempting to be socially responsible
or stewards of the Land for generations to come, they're anticipating (and often precipitating)
Armageddon where only those with the most Spam and ammo will rule.

The root of the Prepper phenomenon is tribal mentalities.

It's one of the reasons Papau New Guinea is such a verdant garden of Peace and Prosperity.
That's what Preppers are advocating - "Me and Mine against the rest".

[Charles Wiggins]

I have a friend who believes he lives "off the grid" though he does have electricity. He lacks a phone and water. Today is tax day and he hasn't filed in nearly a decade. Of course, he doesn't earn enough to file. Lives on a small "farm" where he piddles around and doesn't get much accomplished. In a decade he hasn't even put in a well or hooked up to water that is available 100 feet from his "barn" in which he lives. It's his way of beating the system in his mind. He hoards every thing possible, mostly totally useless stuff. He says it's in preparation for catastrophic events that will happen any moment. Any of the rest of you know anyone who doesn't really interact with the world? Is it more "normal" than it appears?

I know several people who have moved off the grid in one form or another. For some it means raising more of their own food, for others, energy independence. It's becoming fairly common in this area. Most are not the hermit type though. Compared to the folks I know, your friend sounds lazy rather than independent or frugal. My mother grew up in her grandparent's home, living much the same fashion as Ryan Mooney describes, when "off-the-grid" was known as everyday life. I experienced some of that in my childhood. When I was a kid they had gotten electricity (2-wire knob & tube) with an electric stove and power washing machine, with rollers on top, in the kitchen, a oil heating stove in the front room, and running water in the kitchen, but nowhere else. There was no indoor bathroom. They still kept a pitcher & basin in the bedroom to wash up in the morning. When necessary we bathed in a washtub in the kitchen. They still had an outhouse privy and a spring house for refrigeration and a working hand water pump on the back porch. I don't recall an electric refrigerator, but they might have had one. Despite having the electric cook-stove they still kept the old wood-burning cook stove for backup heat in the kitchen on really cold days.

At our own home we've installed a fireplace insert to heat with wood, mainly to keep the gas furnace from running so much, but also as backup heat during power outages. We've also started collecting rainwater runoff from the roof, mainly to water the garden; but it is clear enough that if we lost water service we could flush toilets and wash clothes with it, and we'd only have to boil it to make it potable for drinking and dish washing.

Actress Daryl Hannah has become quite famous for living off the grid. From what I recall, she has a house out in the middle of nowhere that runs on solar or windmill power most of the time with a biodiesel backup. She has all the standard amenities including Internet access. She is connected to "the grid" but usually generates an excess of power, so she sells electricity back to the power company. She has an old diesel El Camino that has been converted to run on biodiesel that she collects and processes herself.

Isn't there a name for the folks who think doom and gloom will happen right around the corner?

In general, I think they are known as "Doom & Gloom Conspiracy Theorists." The ones that actually do something about being ready for it are called "preppers," as in "preparation." I follow a couple on YouTube. My favorite is LDSPrepper, mainly because his setup is more suburban than rural, and it's amazing what he's crammed into his tiny little bit of property. If a more rural setup is of interest, WranglerStar is kinda cool.

Cheers,
Charles

[Erik Loza]

At my age, where to take a date after dinner would matter little in the scheme of things. The real issue is where would I keep all the Minimax and other woodworking tools? That's the deal breaker for many of us.

I couldn't give up a garage. That's the deal breaker. My wife's sanctuary is the kitchen and mine is the garage. We talk at times about putting a cabin on some property out in the Hill Country and she talks about a frontier-style lifestyle but it usually stops the moment I mention the word "outhouse".

There's a whole bunch of old people (some not so old too!) that do this all the time. They call themselves "full-timers". And their "cars" would be, of course, motorhomes!

I'm hoping to be one someday-- soon! We already have the "car"...

Hahaha, indeed. I slept in various of my past vehicles on more than one occasion but would only do it again in an RV or camper.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Ryan Mooney]

We talk at times about putting a cabin on some property out in the Hill Country and she talks about a frontier-style lifestyle but it usually stops the moment I mention the word "outhouse".
Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Hehe, that's just the easy part, at least most of the year (winters could get a little rough).

Imaging cooking in a kitchen with its 80F/90F/100F outside with no AC over a wood stove. Some of my early memories of canning food in the summer involve it being really hot! An inside/outside kitchen would be real nice. Similarly heating wash water with the wood stove is HOT and there is a reason we baked bread the same day (the whole place is an oven only once a week + wood usage). Speaking of wood usage going through 12+ cords a year wasn't uncommon. Wood cook stoves burn a whole lot of wood (much worse than a wood heater) and it all needs to be split small. Moms elbows took years to recover from hauling water up the hill (we had a spring on the property that fed the main house so we did laundry there, but the cabin wasn't plumbed in at the time - doing so required digging ~1/4 mile of ditch about 6' deep - its one of those devils paradoxes where you're so far behind getting stuff done you can't get ahead to not work so hard). Reading at night was difficult with the poor lighting (we had kerosene but its still yellow, dim and flickery in comparison to modern lighting).

There were some good sides as well, and there is clearly a way to balance that some by using appropriate technologies in appropriate places. An analogy I think a lot of us can understand is the trade off of using a bandsaw to rough cut wood even if you're mostly a neander.

[Erik Loza]

LOL, Ryan, thanks. I love her to death and understand the "romance" behind the idea but as you point out, the lack of A/C and everything else, I think, maybe is outside the field of view. I try to gently steer the discussion toward, "What if rented a furnished cabin for a week or two?", whenever the topic comes up.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Ryan Mooney]

LOL, Ryan, thanks. I love her to death and understand the "romance" behind the idea but as you point out, the lack of A/C and everything else, I think, maybe is outside the field of view.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

The funny thing is that its almost universally the other way where the guy has some theory of roughing it and the woman has the "are you crazy" repsonse (certainly true in our household ).

I know of one other couple sort of in your situation; she ended up buying a cabin in the woods an hour or so from their house (relatively plush with electric lights, indoor plumbing and baseboard heating - heaters added so they could get insurance) but has a heck of a time getting the rest of the family to even go up to that. Their kids are simply appalled at the idea of being someplace without internet for a few hours "But moooom how will I play my <insert game of week>" and her husband has a similar response

[Rich Riddle]

I often ponder having a second home (less than 800 square feet total) with little more than electricity and well water. Do any of you folks had experience with "dugout" or "earth contact" homes as second homes. Don't they stay reasonably warm in the winter and cool in the summer if cut into a hill?

[Ryan Mooney]

I often ponder having a second home (less than 800 square feet total) with little more than electricity and well water. Do any of you folks had experience with "dugout" or "earth contact" homes as second homes. Don't they stay reasonably warm in the winter and cool in the summer if cut into a hill?

My one grandpa built a house with the back half like that. They do work pretty well but there are a few caveates.

Make sure you seal the outside of it REALLY WELL. This was in a very dry climate and he still had mold encroachment problems through one of the walls (hypothesis that this may be even worse than a basement in this regard because you end up with a bit more temperature swing which can cause more condensation but I'm not sure - all I know is that once you got the mold you got the mold and you ain't getting rid of it out of the concrete).

Design it so you get sufficient light since you're blocking off a lot of the windows. The solar tubes or similar should help a lot and on grandpas house the front was all windows (with a large overhang/porch so lots of light but no direct sun).

Figure the whole house into the design. If you don't insulate the rest of it well having the one side in the hill obviously doesn't help.

There are a few other odd-ball energy efficient house construction types if you're into that sort of thing: straw bale (with stucco skim), rammed earth (in tires or otherwise), soda bottle and concrete, slump block/adobe, etc... All have their up and downsides (the downside in a lot of cases being a ton of labour ) but are interesting to look at anyway.

[Larry Edgerton]

Rich,

It is unusual to take 'the simple life' to that extent, but not extraordinary. The "beating the system" and preparing for the apocalypse aspects may simply be rationales he offers for not interacting a lot with the rest of society, or it could be his real motivations.

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Regarding "living off the grid", strictly speaking it merely means that one is not connected to the utilities (and increasingly, communications) grid. It doesn't mean that you don't have electricity, merely that you generate your own in some fashion AND are not connected to the grid. Many folks generate their own while remaining connected, either because they don't generate enough, they want backup, or they sell electricity to the grid. Ditto for water and sewer. Does having a septic tank mean "you're off the grid"? Well, it means you're off the sewer grid. Nor does it mean that you don't participate in the modern economy, don't socialize, etc.

Now, many people will take it further. They may forgo any energy sources that are outside of their control. So, hydro/geo/wind/solar on their own land are good, but grid/generators not so much. Wood/coal are the primary fire sources, although some will consider oil/gasoline/diesel/natural gas/propane as acceptable for the short term. Food, a combination of stockpiles and grow/catch/trade. They may farm, or at least have a vegetable garden. They may farm using a tractor, and/or draft animals. They may eliminate modern communications tech. They may be hermits. They may homeschool. Others "live off the grid" while commuting to work in the city, dropping their kids off at school on the way and picking up a movie at Redbox on the way home.

The motivations for going off the grid are almost as numerous as the degrees of off the grid one can go. One motivation that's gotten little mention is an awful lot like what motivates many people here to work wood. Metaphorically speaking, living off the grid is a "hand made" life, not one made in a factory. The virtues of simplicity, self-reliance, lower cost, authenticity, personal design, and by gosh, can I do it? (note that realizing these virtues can be as elusive in living off the grid as in woodworking.)

So remember, as you're buffing out the last section of the new dining room table that you hand crafted alone in your shop, using wood felled by an artisanal lumberjack, you've gone off the furniture making grid. When you stand back to admire your handiwork, as the notions for the next project swirl about in your mind, ask yourself: "Am I crazy?"

Very reasonable post.

I am having a hard time understanding where some of the animosity is coming from in some of these posts? A person has the right, last time I checked, to live a lifestyle different than the norm as long as he or she is not hurting anyone else. Maybe I'm missing something.

My parents lived 7 months of the year in a cabin we built with no power, and a well we hand drove, with a pitcher pump. They stayed there every Spring/Summer/Fall for over 30 years, and stayed in an approved house through the winter months. Had an outhouse, a very nice one by outhouse standards, and was 13 miles to the closest power line. Not too far from Lake Superior, absolutely beautiful country with great fishing. As kids we loved to go there, our kids, their grandchildren loved to go there and still talk about their time there to this day. Not really seeing the problem with the people that do this, but I am seeing a problem with some that don't see it as fitting in to their vision of reality. Fear maybe?

Larry

[David Weaver]

I often ponder having a second home (less than 800 square feet total) with little more than electricity and well water. Do any of you folks had experience with "dugout" or "earth contact" homes as second homes. Don't they stay reasonably warm in the winter and cool in the summer if cut into a hill?

Rich, you should go to the site permies.com. They've got all kinds of interesting stuff there, including some stuff that is way way out there, but it's a clean site and people are required to be nice to each other.

There are accounts of stuff like houses dug into a hillside and made to be invisible otherwise on properties so that you can't see them (as a code enforcement person), and they have aspects like earthen roofs, and one of my favorite things in some of the other houses - a new trend called a rocket mass heater (which is a near zero particulate wood burner that exhausts through a large of cob and stays warm after the fire is out).

[Erik Loza]

My wife and I just made a road trip through NM and saw a community of "earth ship" houses outside town. Pretty crazy designs...

http://earthship.com/

I don't think they are totally off the grid but are at least somewhat self sustaining.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Rich Riddle]

David and Erik,

Thanks for those links. They are amazing; ingenuity at its finest.

[Roger Feeley]

I have a friend that is 'prepping'. I don't understand why. He's 450 lbs, an insulin diabetic, can barely walk and has battled a MRSA infection for 10 years. But he's hoarding food and weapons against the day that it all comes down. He doesn't seem to realize that, without insulin and antibiotics, he wouldn't survive a month.

At the other end of the spectrum is the Morman doctrine of 'Provident Living'. I'm not a Morman but as I understand it, provident living is the philosophy of self-reliance. They are encouraged to keep a stockpile of necessities in the event of a natural catastrophe. The idea is not so much, "I've got mine" but more like, "I don't want to be a burden in times of crises." I have to respect that.

For myself, I don't want to be off the grid. I like the grid...a lot. But I would like to be grid-friendly. Sort of like the Mormons. My house draws about 1-2kw with the frig and heat pump running. If I were planning on staying in this house very long (I'm not), I would love to have about 3-4kw in solar panels on the roof to take care of the basic operation of the house. It would take a LOT of solar to operate my 3hp table saw + dust collector + lights. I wouldn't even try. I have no interest in messing with batteries so I would prefer a net-metering scheme that is revenue neutral to the utility. Like the Mormons, I seek some measure of self-reliance. I don't want a hand-out but I would like to reduce my dependency on the grid.

[Brian Elfert]

The problem with solar and no batteries is if everybody depends on the grid when the sun isn't shining then the power companies have to have a lot of power on standby for when the sun goes away. Many power plants can't just be turned on and off based on power demand. Coal power plants typically have to run 24x7 because it takes a long time to bring the plant on or offline. I toured a coal plant once and they claimed if the generator ever stopped turning that the metal shaft would flat spot due to the immense weight. (I have no idea how they ever did work on the generator.)