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Thread: Hand-cut dovetail advice

  1. #1

    Hand-cut dovetail advice

    I've been working on hand-cut dovetails for the past couple of years with maybe a hundred or so dovetails under my belt. My results have been OK but I've been wanting to refine my technique a bit. After reading the ariticle in the current issue of Fine Woodworking, I decided to try some of the suggestions presented. The author recommended scoring the lines for the pins with a knife (tails were cut first) and then sawing these right on the line. This seemed counter-intuitive to me, but I thought I'd try it. My interpretation of this was to put the center of the kerf right on the score line. I ended up with loose-fitting joints, sort of what I expected. Did I interpret this recommendation correctly?

  2. #2
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    Hi Rob

    You do not saw on the line. You saw to the line ...



    This article in FWW was published 3 years after I presented this technique in my website. I have published several articles since. Here are a couple ...

    http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furnitu...sinJarrah.html

    http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMad...ngaBench4.html



    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  3. #3
    i haven't read the article, but it goes without saying that to get decent accuracy without a whole lot of practice, you'll need to cut your second part of the joint (depending on whether you cut pins or tails first) by cutting on one side or the other of your marked line, whatever is appropriate.

    I've never seen much difference in my dovetails scored line or pencil line.

    Are you doing anything in particular that would put the odds against you (e.g., cutting dovetails in 1 inch thick white oak to start off?).

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Hi Rob
    You do not saw on the line. You saw to the line ...
    Derek
    Using the tape like you have demonstrated is an outstanding idea Derek. It really highlights the part you want to save

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    The author recommended scoring the lines for the pins with a knife (tails were cut first) and then sawing these right on the line. This seemed counter-intuitive to me, but I thought I'd try it.
    This took me awhile to figure out.

    If the pins are marked with a pencil, all of the pencil line is in the area to be retained. Marking with a knife, the line is still at the edge of the mating surfaces.

    Another way to look at this… When the tail board is placed in proper alignment on the pin board, when you look between the tails all the wood you see on the pin board is to remain after cutting the pins. Hence, the line stays with it.

    There is sawing to a line and there is sawing to split the line. Though most of my saws have a kerf thicker than my sharp pencil lines. For dovetails, whether one does pins first or tails first, the second cut marked from the first piece cut is sawn "to the line." Splitting the line will make for a loose joint.

    I saw the FWW issue on the rack and almost picked it up to take a look.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Hi Rob

    You do not saw on the line. You saw to the line ...

    ...
    That is what I would have thought, and why I said the author's suggestion was counter-intuitive. You'd think he would have been a little more precise with his wording for this very critical step.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    This took me awhile to figure out.

    If the pins are marked with a pencil, all of the pencil line is in the area to be retained. Marking with a knife, the line is still at the edge of the mating surfaces.

    Another way to look at this… When the tail board is placed in proper alignment on the pin board, when you look between the tails all the wood you see on the pin board is to remain after cutting the pins. Hence, the line stays with it.

    There is sawing to a line and there is sawing to split the line. Though most of my saws have a kerf thicker than my sharp pencil lines. For dovetails, whether one does pins first or tails first, the second cut marked from the first piece cut is sawn "to the line." Splitting the line will make for a loose joint.

    I saw the FWW issue on the rack and almost picked it up to take a look.

    jtk


    This all makes sense when you think about it. Thanks for making me think about it!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    Using the tape like you have demonstrated is an outstanding idea Derek. It really highlights the part you want to save
    Thanks Pat. The FWW article referred to by Rob is about using blue tape to mark dovetails (I did not write the FWW article). I've been writing about this technique for some years now. It is an absolute boon for ageing eyes when sawing to lines in dark wood (works in light wood too).

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  9. #9
    The blue tape seems like a good idea that I'll have to try. The article that I referred to (by Christian Becksvoort) did not mention blue tape, although it is as two-part article of which I only have the second part.

  10. #10
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    Aha ... there was an article in the latest FWW by Michael Pekovich using blue tape. I thought you were referring to this.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  11. #11
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    Graduate Class?IMAG0007.jpgBlack walnut is the victim hereIMAG0005.jpgModified an old "junker" H-F 1/4" chisel, so I could get into all the nooks and crannies. Supposed to look like a miter joint, when done...

  12. #12
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    The set of cuts whether they be the pins or tails doesn't matter. It's the second cut the matters. If you use a pencil you should saw so the line shows slightly on the waste side. If you cut the pins or tails first and they are nice and square the other piece should fit pretty well.
    Don

  13. #13
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    The blue tape is likewise handy when thicknessing a board.

    With one side flat, apply the tape all around the perimeter before using your marking gauge to mark the "plane to" spot. It's much easier on tired eyes.


    <Running out to buy stock in blue tape companies.> :-)
    One can never have too many planes and chisels... or so I'm learning!!

  14. #14
    The way to get better at cutting dovetails is to....cut dovetails.

    The blue tape technique can help you visualize the geometry of the joint but ultimately, eye and muscle coordination depends on repetition. By the way, when using blue tape to lay out dovetails, do you leave the tape on the joint or do you remove it after the joint is put together? Aren't lay out lines a hallmark of hand cut dovetails? If you remove the tape how will anyone know the joint was sawn by hand? Hummmm? I'll hang up and listen for the answer.
    Last edited by Mike Brady; 04-17-2014 at 11:39 PM.

  15. #15
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    Try every whicha way to see what works best for you.

    Derek's tape revelation and using a knife on the tape is a great way to go.
    That said
    if knifing on to/into end grain, (and using no tape) is
    FOR ME
    a mistake.
    The end grain self heals and the line disappears especially on walnut/dark wood.
    I prefer, for end grain, pencil or scribing rather than knifing and then rubbing with chalk if it is dark wood.
    All this gets planed off in the end after the joint is glued up.
    Going pins first when you can allows the pins to be cut without much layout SEE FRANK KLAUSZ DVD and then use the pins to layout on the side of the dovetail board where knifed lines will be much easier to see.
    He uses pencil here to. On softer wood.
    The harder wood, I think, is best knifed rather than pencil.
    Sharpening is Facetating.
    Good enough is good enough
    But
    Better is Better.

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