Chinese Hand Tool Woodworking

[Michael Kellough]

I don't think I did. I think the post with the eyeballed dovetails is right above yours.

Something else in it to note for folks watching, the toothline on the saw looks terrible, but look how well it cuts. It's not been jointed in what looks like ever, which is no big deal on a frame saw since the blades can be replaced more easily.

Okay, see them again, must of been a problem with Hybrid thread view.

It would be a shame to lose the work you've done finding interesting stuff in the many hours of video that craftsman has posted.


I don't have any bow saws but it seems unusual to have the blade mounted sideways (perpendicular to the handle) as in the saw used to cut tails by eye. Is that common?

[David Weaver]

I haven't seen it often, but it looks like all of his saws are set up like that so he can rip the edges off of boards.

[Eric Schubert]

I enjoyed it more not knowing what was being said lol but I am left with the feeling that I'm being yelled at like I'm listening to German.

I have to agree! It sounded so much like yelling at times that it was comical to my non-Mandarin-speaking brain.

But I have to agree that this guy has serious skills. To be able to swing at a chisel before it's even in place just amazes me. He works quickly, and know exactly what he's doing and where his tools are at all times. Thanks to David for sharing!

[Eric Schubert]

Eyeballing the tails.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U42C8tf-Xe4
Notice around 9 or 10 minutes in this video, he's cutting the tails to match dovetails that he made pins for. He's only cutting them, not marking them. He lays his pin board just below the tail board and eyeballs the pins to cut the tails.

I'm pretty new to woodworking. I've never seen mitered dovetails before. They'll look awesome when they're finished, assuming they're well-made.

[Pat Barry]

Eyeballing the tails.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U42C8tf-Xe4
Notice around 9 or 10 minutes in this video, he's cutting the tails to match dovetails that he made pins for. He's only cutting them, not marking them. He lays his pin board just below the tail board and eyeballs the pins to cut the tails.

Don't try this at home. LOL. This man must have made a million dovetails. I checked out his website http://www.xuemugong.com/home.php?mod=space&do=album
ChineseStool.PNG
Does anyone here read enough chinese to figure out the price for that stool in the picture?

[ian maybury]

The coincidence of this thread with Chris Schwarz's blog where he suggests that many on his courses prefer modern tools to their restored vintage hand planes is perhaps quite synchronistic - it's hard not to comment.

There's a hugely refreshing integrity/honesty about the work in those Chinese videos, and the way it's filmed. There's so much as a result that can be learned from it. Minimal production values, very ordinary tools, no sound bites (just getting the info across), no over acting/pseudo characterisation/playing to the gallery (normal delivery), normal time/no stripping out of the supposedly boring bits (that often turn out to matter) by a non woodworking editor, no branding, no marketing. Plus a very beautiful demo of how repetition and ongoing refinement of basic methods leads to amazing but very matter of fact skill levels - that must lead us to the conclusion that there's many ways to get the job done. (i'm reminded of a previous video of a guy turning chess pieces in the street in Morocco (?) using his feet and a bow lathe) His methods and tools are in their own way very highly optimised, but in a hugely low key way. The focus is the doing rather than talking about doing.

Here in the West we have managed to layer so much (woodworking included) with big brother and judgemental overtones - usually to assist the self and commercial interests that drive the presentation of much of what we do that makes it into into public arena. One result i think is that the focus on what works - on honest communication of ways and means to achieve the effective delivery of outcomes (honourable exceptions excluded) has long since been lost in the noise. Marketing, sales and increasingly mag claims that parrot these are especially problematical.

It's so easy to get brainwashed into feeling that we have to have this or that latest machine, tool or piece of equipment to be able to handle basic woodworking tasks - or to be psyched out by the tone of some expert that subtly elevates a skilled but not impossible task into rocket science.. Or to lose belief in ourselves or fall to impatience when the results don't instantly come. Some I think don't even make it as far as the woodworking - it can at times seem like it's more about the bragging rights than the doing. Or we may end up over committing, or in paralysis by analysis, and as a result lose contact with our muse/enthusiasm - behaving as though we have to satisfy the woodworking thought police. When what's really happenening is that we've been eased/eased ourselves into a place where we give our power away/are seeking higher approval. There's plenty ready for their own ends to leverage (and via the mags, advertising etc intensify) these needs to sell us lots of stuff that we actually don't need or doesn't work as claimed, to impose controls on the hobby/profession and so on. A microcosm of our societies really.….

The judgemental (but largely unspoken) tone implicit in the broad reaction to Chris Schwarz's observation that many at his classes are drawn to high end modern planes (and his very cautious presentation of it) is a case in point. The matter of fact reality is surely that it'd be very odd if modern machine tools, materials and manufacturing methods couldn't (at a price) deliver tools offering superior performance when compared to a vintage model tuned by a first time amateur restorer on a restricted budget - with limited experience, average abilities and mostly DIY equipment. Or that 'off the peg' wouldn't prove an attractive alternative to the many (often time poor and cash rich) woodworkers in that situation. Against that (as demonstrated by our Chinese friend above) it's no surprise either that a few highly skilled and motivated individuals using parts from others of the same ilk can get vintage models performing to a similar level. My guess is that there's even quite a few with a foot in both camps.

Perhaps both (and all of the roads in between) are valid paths. Perhaps what's right for us really depends on our situation, and what we're here to do and hence learn. Perhaps the higher truth is that what matters is that we focus on finding whatever suits (what feels good) and on getting on with it - that the only possible error is to get sucked into hoopla, guilt trips or doing what's wrong for us because we feel we 'should'.....….

[Bruce Mack]

I am one of those who tries to substitute a tool for a missing skill. This man with his old bench and metalworking vise humbles me.

[David Weaver]

Ian, I hadn't even thought of this in the context of the discussion about old and new tools. The reason I got sucked into watching it all is because Chris Scholz posted a couple of videos elsewhere, and I wanted to see what else the guy was making other than traditional chinese things (maybe everything he makes is traditional chinese, even if some of it looks a little easier for us to tolerate style wise (like the boxes).

But you do make a good point. Chris said on another forum that one of the chisels he's using was 20 cents in china (found used) and the saws he's using look to be plain carbon steel bladed and shop made. And he builds the plane without trouble. I didn't see him taking any thin plane shavings, which contrary to what we're told in terms of premium planes, isn't really required for making furniture (nice to have as final smoothing if not scraping, but even those shavings at a thousandth or so are fine - which is attainable by any plane).

I think we said it in the other thread, most of the problems that the whiz bang tools are trying to solve are a lack of experience, and it would be better for most to get experience than tools. That means making some rough nasty stuff and putting some repetition in before things happen the way you expect, but that experience is more valuable than "better" tools.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

On the subject of the tools this fellow is using; I've been trying to get a better look at that multiple marking gauge, but it's hard to tell in the video quality on the couple of videos I've had time to look at - but am I the only one to whom it looks like the cutters are ground allen-bits, like what folks use for DIY router planes?

[David Weaver]

I thought that's what they look like, too, but they could just be rod that's bent that way.

[Brian Holcombe]

Ian, I hadn't even thought of this in the context of the discussion about old and new tools. The reason I got sucked into watching it all is because Chris Scholz posted a couple of videos elsewhere, and I wanted to see what else the guy was making other than traditional chinese things (maybe everything he makes is traditional chinese, even if some of it looks a little easier for us to tolerate style wise (like the boxes).

But you do make a good point. Chris said on another forum that one of the chisels he's using was 20 cents in china (found used) and the saws he's using look to be plain carbon steel bladed and shop made. And he builds the plane without trouble. I didn't see him taking any thin plane shavings, which contrary to what we're told in terms of premium planes, isn't really required for making furniture (nice to have as final smoothing if not scraping, but even those shavings at a thousandth or so are fine - which is attainable by any plane).

I think we said it in the other thread, most of the problems that the whiz bang tools are trying to solve are a lack of experience, and it would be better for most to get experience than tools. That means making some rough nasty stuff and putting some repetition in before things happen the way you expect, but that experience is more valuable than "better" tools.

This requires constant reminder. I generally enjoy looking at tools and tend to appreciate those with a lot of thought put into them, but have to remind myself on occasion that something that fills a very similar niche to something I already own is going to do very little in the way of helping me accomplish more.

The aestheticist in me is in constant turmoil.

[ian maybury]

Ta guys, i was a bit nervous that that lot might have caused offence. That series of videos is a great find David, and for me is just a great reminder of the some of the subtler basics that underpin healthy woodworking. That's not to suggest that we all have to go back to working that way. There's as before a place for high end ready made tools, and a place for the more organic approach - or anything in between. Even a beginner can learn a lot from high end stuff - it sure beats ending up discouraged and quitting as a result of never coming to the realisation that there's no substitute for high performing tools. Nothing wrong either with (having figured out why it is that good tools work) setting out to extract similar performance from older stuff. Or being eased into a journey of discovery while learning how to tune tools and machines because what you have is not performing as it could/should.

It's tempting to imagine the good old days and master/apprentice relationships as having been some sort of golden era, but a hard look suggests not - that while methods were drummed into trainees the fact is that (a) they often didn't stick, (b) they probably often ended up doing the right things for the wrong reasons, and (c ) they were often working to impossible demands and with poor quality (and often very dangerous) tools and machines.

We're every lucky to so often be free to work through our stuff. The key I think is what's going on in our minds - it's got to have integrity to be genuine. To feel good and right. It's really important for ourselves and for society that we stay authentic and in touch with ourselves, the craft, the aesthetic and what it all means for our engagement with the others and the world. That we reject the bull that has become so prevalent. The risk is as above that it's so easy to get sucked into doing stuff for all the wrong reasons - and that's good for nobody...

[Pinwu Xu]

Thanks for finding and posting the link

I ended up starting with the "episode 1": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gaAxWz3CbY

It is in Mandarin, northern China dialect.

[Pinwu Xu]

It's hard to watch with all that talking... the saw making is very cool! love his marking gauge, brilliant!

In the episode 1 of the stool (folding stool) making, he expressed opinion about the western style marking gauge, thought that the one he was using was good and accurate enough.

The fact that it's got 4 cutters is a really useful one, we use the western styled marking gauge may end up with several on bench and it would give us hard time remember which is which

[Pinwu Xu]

High end japanese mortise chisels tolerate that kind of work easily. The least expensive chisels I've used that will, though, are miyanaga, and even those (while not being super high end) are not inexpensive.

Ray iles chisels tolerate that kind of stuff well, too. Chinese tool stuff is hard to gather. They look like they're made similar to japanese chisels but with a bigger socket. I would assume that if they are traditional, they're carbon steel, because the guangxi finish hone that's all over the place (blue slate) is not a fast stone, and I know they don't have the same fetish the japanese have with synthetic sharpening stones, because most sythetic chinese sharpening stones are junky - with the possible exception of some of the expensive sintered hones that they make.

At any rate, the guy in the video doesn't baby his tools and they tolerate it well. It's clear that they're not dull when he's using them.

The chisel could be regional.
If you ever get the chance to tour China, find the wholesale market for the locals, you might find handmade chisels (not more delicate, but that's a small market/demand for chisels). The mortise chisel could be very thick so I guess the yank/pry would be OK (just finished the episode I, will check out the II tomorrow). The chisels available at these local market usually are not handled, that you can either by handle at the booth (look rustic to me, maybe just a piece of tree branch, oiled), or make your own. The chisel, with our de-valued dollar, is about $1 a piece

On the other hand, in southeast China, it seems that those booth in the market would carry machine made plane blades (claim to be laminated), western style plane blades