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Thread: Amazon Rosewood

  1. #1
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    Amazon Rosewood

    I was at the hardwood store today. When checking out, one of the guys said, "That wood looks pretty plain for you!" I had some 8/4 curly maple and some 4/4 figured maple labeled "HIWM". I mentioned making guitars. He then produced this 1/4 piece of what he called Amazonian Rosewood.


    It felt much harder than what I've seen on guitars. He said he used to use it for instrument keys (I think?) I was paying more attention to the wood, trying to decide if it was something I'd want to buy, but I thought he also said something about buying the original stock back in the 60's. I should have paid better attention.

    Can anyone tell me about this wood? The piece above is large enough to make two guitar fretboards and he priced it at $70. It's much more attractive than the rosewood I see on guitars in the stores. Did I stumble on a find? If so, is it worth pursuing? He says he has more.

  2. #2
    By no means am I a expert on Rosewoods but That looks like Pau Ferro with that black in the grain pattern
    BUT if he did actually buy it in the sixties it might be Real Brazilian Rosewood which is rare & CITES restricted class 1
    I'd run not walk to buy some myself
    but if not it's Pau Ferro or it's also called Bolivian Rosewood, Santos Rosewood or
    Morado

    the color is redder than the link has but I've seen it that red as yours is
    http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/pau-ferro/



    Last edited by Michael Mahan; 04-22-2014 at 9:46 PM.
    Mike >............................................/ Maybe I'm doing this Babysitting Gig to throw off the Authorities \................................................<

  3. Check out the wood database entry:
    http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-...azon-rosewood/

    I think it might be Amazon Rosewood. The color looks within the right range in my opinion. Brazilian rosewood is generally darker, especially if it's been aging since the 60's, but they can both have that lighter redish color too.
    Give it a light sanding and smell it. If it's either Brazilian or Amazon rosewood it should smell "roseish".

    You can use fluorescence to tell the difference. Take some sawdust, shake it in a small vial of water, and shine a UV light on it. if it glows bright blue, it's Amazon rosewood. Brazilian rosewood water extract won't fluoresce.

  4. #4
    I have some Panamanian Rosewood that is that color & grain pattern minus the black in the grain
    so in any case it's beautiful stuff
    Last edited by Michael Mahan; 04-22-2014 at 9:47 PM.
    Mike >............................................/ Maybe I'm doing this Babysitting Gig to throw off the Authorities \................................................<

  5. #5
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    Amazon rosewood is a VERY vague term. It could include Brazilian rosewood that did not grow right on the Amazon River,but is the same species. "Real" Brazilian rosewood is rosewood that did grow on the banks of the river.

    However,that wood does not resemble Brazilian at all. It is some other species as mentioned above. Personally,I do not find it very attractive. But,beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    Brazilian Rosewood only smells of roses just after it has been felled. When dry,it is more of a peppery,spicy smell. Once you have worked it,you will know the smell. I have used it since the 1950's. Too bad it's banned. Some things get banned just because the government of the country it comes from wants to protect the native population's use of it to make trinkets to sell to tourists. Deposits of fossilized tree resins (amber) are "protected" like that in some countries,like the Dominican Republic.

    So many previously uncommonly sold species are popping up these days,as other supplies diminish,it's hard to keep track of all of them.
    Last edited by george wilson; 04-23-2014 at 9:01 AM.

  6. #6
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    This stuff is pretty hard. I can't put an impression in it with my thumbnail. I put a small piece in water and it sunk immediately. When I cut a piece off the end, it seemed to have a rosy smell but, had I not been expecting it, I probably would have described it as sweet. I don't have a UV lamp but I was able to get some closeup pics that pretty accurately showed the color and detailed the grain.


    Wood Database: Color/Appearance: Amazon Rosewood tends to be an orange or reddish brown, with darker contrasting streaks.
    Lighter yellowish sapwood is clearly demarcated from heartwood.
    Grain/Texture:
    Amazon Rosewood has uniform, medium texture with open pores.


    Crosscut:

    Wood Database: Endgrain: Diffuse-porous; medium pores in no specific arrangement; solitary and radial multiples of 2-3; mineral deposits present; growth rings indistinct; rays not visible without lens; parenchyma banded (seemingly marginal), apotracheal parenchyma diffuse-in-aggregates, paratracheal parenchyma vasicentric and aliform.

    Break along the grain:


    It seems to meet much of the criteria from Wood Database but a lot of that stuff is Greek to me.

    I'm trying to decide if this wood is something rare. I'm not all that crazy about the rosewood fretboards I've seen on manufactured guitars. They all look so blah. But I find this more interesting and if really is Amazon Rosewood or some rare species that will work well as a fretboard and increase the value of the guitar, then I'll look into buying more.

    BTW, I took the piece I bought yesterday and did a rough calculation of the BD/FT cost. It came out to about $170 BD/FT. The most expensive wood the hardwood store sells in 8/4 Gaboon Ebony at $106.50 BD/FT.

  7. True Amazon rosewood is a single species: Dalbergia spruceana
    And true Brazilian rosewood is Dalbergia nigra.
    Anything called rosewood should at least be in the Dalbergia genus.

    so, scientifically it shouldn't be vague at all, but like a lot of exotic wood terminology, it get's misused. There are lots of woods marketed as "rosewoods" that aren't in the rosewood genus Dalbergia. It's the same with Mahogany. Lots of wood dealers will just slap the name "rosewood" or "mahogany" on anything that sort of resembles the real thing, as a marketing gimmick

    But this looks like the real thing. Amazon rosewood.
    The price is a bit high for rough cut wood, but not outrageous. You can buy pre-cut, pre-sanded amazon rosewood fingerboards for $20-$30 each.
    Last edited by Christopher Collins; 04-23-2014 at 11:59 AM.

  8. #8
    that 1st board looks WAY better than the 2nd board
    Mike >............................................/ Maybe I'm doing this Babysitting Gig to throw off the Authorities \................................................<

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Collins View Post
    True Amazon rosewood is a single species: Dalbergia spruceana
    And true Brazilian rosewood is Dalbergia nigra.
    Anything called rosewood should at least be in the Dalbergia genus.

    so, scientifically it shouldn't be vague at all, but like a lot of exotic wood terminology, it get's misused. There are lots of woods marketed as "rosewoods" that aren't in the rosewood genus Dalbergia. It's the same with Mahogany. Lots of wood dealers will just slap the name "rosewood" or "mahogany" on anything that sort of resembles the real thing, as a marketing gimmick

    But this looks like the real thing. Amazon rosewood.
    The price is a bit high for rough cut wood, but not outrageous. You can buy pre-cut, pre-sanded amazon rosewood fingerboards for $20-$30 each.
    Thank you for that informative reply. From what I have been able to gather, it does fit the descriptions of Amazon Rosewood. With your input, I'm more convinced.

    I've seen those fretboards on Ebay. I'm always a little skeptical about those kinds of things on Ebay. In the musical instrument world, you often see "Flame Maple" and it's graded "A" to "AAAAA". I learned recently that there is no established criteria for identifying those grades. Whoever is selling the wood decides how many A's they want to add. And that stuff I've seen on Ebay looks blah, like all the rosewood I've seen on guitars in the stores.

    The guy at the hardwood store works around wood all day. He's been there for as long as I've been going there. I felt pretty confident he knew what he was talking about but since I didn't, I thought it best to check before investing any more money. The piece I have has nice figure. I've gotten so many compliments on the cocobolo fretboard, so I thought if I can add nicely figured rosewood to my stock, I could sell my work more easily. She rolls the dice...

  10. #10
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    Do not buy that wood. His price is outrageous. It will not increase the value of the guitar. Only very fancy figured BODY wood MIGHT do that. And,the wood is not very pretty. The tone,the pickups and ease of playing are a few things that will have more influence on the value. People,including musicians,can be so ignorant,I don't even know if good workmanship will be of value. I have seen musicians play the most BADLY built instruments,and like them,often for completely imaginary reasons.

    There was this hippie back in the 60's out West somewhere who made classical guitars. He made the bodies COMPLETELY out of redwood. Neck too,I think. he actually rather crudely cut in a TRAPEZOID shaped soundhole. How UGLY can you get? This idiot wanted to be completely FREE in his thinking,so he drew the positions of the frets on the fingerboard FREEHAND,and installed them,intonation did not matter!!!!! He put NO FINISH on the guitars AT ALL.

    Yet,one of the very best guitarists at the North Carolina Schoool of the Performing Arts liked his guitar's tone. He had to BEG the idiot to build him a guitar(all redwood,of course) with a ROUND soundhole,and some crude inlay around it,and properly spaced frets. The guitar still looked about as crappy as it is possible to look,but the guitarist liked it. The guitarist had money,and had a Ramirez classical guitar,same as Segovia,and some other vintage classical guitars as well.

    There are other stories I have,but I am tired and don't feel like writing them down.

    The major thing that will influence the value of your guitars,is getting a following of musicians to play them. Then,other players who admire anyone famous you can get to play your guitar,will want one,even if they can't play well,or truly judge a guitar for themselves.

    In 1966 I was able to meet Sabicas(google his youtube videos-he's amazing,now dead) and he played one of my guitars,and agreed to accept one. In 1967 I presented him with the guitar I made for him in Greensboro,N.C.. That sort of endorsement is a huge honor,and makes your work worth much more. I might be the only American to get his endorsement. Sabicas was the World's greatest flamenco guitarist. I had only played flamenco for over 35 years. Sabicas was my favorite player.

    A guy on "Pawn Stars" came in with a 1963 Strat that Jimmie Hendricks had played ONLY in the recording studio(I care nothing for rock and roll). He wanted $750,000.00. However,except for a paper from Hendrick's brother(I think),he could not prove the guitar was played by him,so no deal. But,that shows you what an ordinary(but vintage) guitar can be worth if played by a famous musician.
    Last edited by george wilson; 04-23-2014 at 7:01 PM.

  11. #11
    Testing the specific gravity of a sample is very helpful in identification of somewhat dissimilar species. I've used a fair bit of Dalbergia Nigra and the piece that you show would not really look like it of course that doesn't mean that it is not.

    I'd agree with George, build a great guitar and get it in the hands of great players. So many hobby builders get jazzed about a particular piece of wood in their guitars and it really only interests woodworkers, not guitarists. Another thing to consider is that guitarists want a sound, a sound that has been generated using certain species of woods in combination for over a 100 years. When buiders start throwing exotics at a guitar for visual effect you get a non traditional sounding guitar, that rarely appeals to a guitarist. A guitar is an instrument not a quilt!

  12. #12
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    George,

    I looked Sabicas on youtube. Very impressive. I particularly liked his version of Malaguena. I don't play flaminco style but cetainly can appreciate it. Did you happen to see the Roy Clark version of Malaguena? He played it with a pick. Great right hand technique. Again, I'm not a fan of country music, but Roy could play.
    Shawn

    "no trees were harmed in the creation of this message, however some electrons were temporarily inconvenienced."

    "I resent having to use my brain to do your thinking"

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Fournier View Post
    Testing the specific gravity of a sample is very helpful in identification of somewhat dissimilar species. I've used a fair bit of Dalbergia Nigra and the piece that you show would not really look like it of course that doesn't mean that it is not.

    I'd agree with George, build a great guitar and get it in the hands of great players. So many hobby builders get jazzed about a particular piece of wood in their guitars and it really only interests woodworkers, not guitarists. Another thing to consider is that guitarists want a sound, a sound that has been generated using certain species of woods in combination for over a 100 years. When buiders start throwing exotics at a guitar for visual effect you get a non traditional sounding guitar, that rarely appeals to a guitarist. A guitar is an instrument not a quilt!
    I've looked a lot into woods affecting the sound on a solid body guitar and could only find one scientific study:

    IV. Conclusions

    Through the course of this research it seems that there is proof to the statement made by Halliday in that the body of an electric guitar does not have resonance. Of course this is both correct and incorrect. From the stand point of the electric guitar’s purpose of being amplified the statement is correct. However, the guitar body does in fact resonate and when it is not plugged in, the body is noticed to color the sound. This observation explains why some would say they can hear a difference in the wood. When playing an electric guitar unplugged the tonal qualities of the wood are apparent as the ears perceive what the microphone “hears”. These perceptible

    variations however, appear to get lost when the volume of the amplified signal takes over.

    So when I'm making guitars I focus more on functionality and aesthetics. It first has to play well. The neck has to be right. The scale has to be dead-on. The action set to the player. And if it's appealing to the eye of the owner, all the better. Of course, the wood has to be stable too.

    I was talking today to a friend of ours who will be coming in on Tuesday. Part of the time here, we'll be spending on making a Tele-style guitar for him. He's been playing for over 30 years and performs often and also is an instructor on the side. All we've talked about so far has been functionality and aesthetics. I offered him the rosewood for his fretboard but he wants cocobolo because of it's beauty.

    I realize I'm pretty new at this but when I'm not working on making a guitar, I'm studying up on it. It's become a passion. So I'm probably further along the learning road than most after 5 or so months.

    As for putting the guitar in the hands of a great player, maybe our friend will get that rolling. But he lives 1000 miles away. If I could find people locally who want one built, I'd have them come to the shop occasionally to get their feedback. I've learned this is a very personal thing.


  14. #14
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    Julie,while I am not a steady builder of solid body guitars,I have built a good number over the years. The hardness and density of the wood does make a noticeable difference in the tone. Harder,denser wood will sustain longer. There are those who claim that an ebony fingerboard adds to sustain. They are probably right,I'm sure. Cocobolo is a good wood for a fingerboard,better than Brazilian rosewood,which is not as dense,or as hard wearing.

    Strips of carbon fiber inlaid in the neck are good also. John C. can tell you more about that,though.
    Last edited by george wilson; 04-26-2014 at 7:27 AM.

  15. #15
    I wasn't perfectly clear about my post, I really was referring to acoustic guitars when I was referring to wood selection and tone. I think that the same holds true in electric guitar construction but to a much lesser extent.

    Building lots of guitars is the best way to really get a hold of the craft, seems like you're doing just that.

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