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Thread: Grinding and shaping bevels

  1. #61
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    So I just spent quite a long time rereading Derek's information on grinding BU chisels (25 degrees, doing higher bevels with micro bevels) and playing lots of the Tormek videos on how to use their jigs. I even registered my Tormek and downloaded the latest copy of the Tormek Manual, reading a good amount of it too.

    I am a little confused by what Steve posted Hans said about sharpening gouges on a Tormek. Hans suggested the SV-32 and SVD-185 Tormek jigs. From what I am reading and seeing in the videos both of these jigs are designed to work with smaller gouges, chisels with short blades. My large Hans' gouge is 2" wide and the other two are about 1 3/8" wide. I believe the blades are also too long for the jigs mentioned above. Even the two Hirsch gouges I have have blades up around 5" long. From what I have read and seen it seems like the SV-50 jig (using the open seat) is the one designed to handle larger gouges. The Tormek "What Jig Should I use?" chart says the SV-32 handles a max of 32mm 1 1/4" wide gouges and the SVD-185 is designed to handle a max 25mm 1" wide gouge. I doubt that more than one or two of the gouges I have will work on either of those jigs.

    I did learn a little more about the SVM-45, knife jig, which Derek suggested I try on drawknives. The Tormek chart also suggests the SVM-45 as the jig for drawknives. I was having some success with that jig on my drawknives previously and I believe, armed with the new information, I can do a good job of sharpening drawknives. This jig came with the Tormek kit I bought so I have it.

    I also have an axe jig that I need to experiment with. The video shows axes being ground with the tool rest in the high position which isn't happening with a low Tormek BGM-100 rest on the bench grinder with CBN wheels, so I have testing to do.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Holbrook View Post
    Thanks for all the great suggestions guys. So it sounds like I may actually have a use for my Veritas Honing Guide which I was about to decide would not get used because it was so slow. Micro bevels on BU plane blades with the Honing Guide and either water stones or my Spydercos makes much more sense. I have one A2 and one PM-V11 38 degree BU blades that will be a good test of the CBN wheel, if I take them back down to 25.

    Great to know that the CBN wheels work well on the slow Tormek grinder. I imagine a 80 grit on a Tormek would be a good way to do the heavy lifting without any worries about temper or need to slow down. Not need to dunk or rest may actually make the Tormek relatively fast with a 80 grit wheel.

    I have been studying the various tool rests: Robbo Hippy's, Oneways and the Veritas. I think the Veritas will handle everything I need to do for now, all I have to do is figure out how best to incresae the grinder space from 1- 1 1/2+".
    I cut the opening out on mine for an old water wheel, but it's been long enough ago that I don't remember how I did it. It's just aluminum. The gap is a little wide for the CBN wheel, but it still works fine. The Batty gauge makes quick work out of setting the Veritas grinding stand right, first shot. I don't want anything "better" for chisels and irons, which is about all I use it for anyway.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Holbrook View Post
    So I just spent quite a long time rereading Derek's information on grinding BU chisels (25 degrees, doing higher bevels with micro bevels) and playing lots of the Tormek videos on how to use their jigs. I even registered my Tormek and downloaded the latest copy of the Tormek Manual, reading a good amount of it too.

    I am a little confused by what Steve posted Hans said about sharpening gouges on a Tormek. Hans suggested the SV-32 and SVD-185 Tormek jigs. From what I am reading and seeing in the videos both of these jigs are designed to work with smaller gouges, chisels with short blades. My large Hans' gouge is 2" wide and the other two are about 1 3/8" wide. I believe the blades are also too long for the jigs mentioned above. Even the two Hirsch gouges I have have blades up around 5" long. From what I have read and seen it seems like the SV-50 jig (using the open seat) is the one designed to handle larger gouges. The Tormek "What Jig Should I use?" chart says the SV-32 handles a max of 32mm 1 1/4" wide gouges and the SVD-185 is designed to handle a max 25mm 1" wide gouge. I doubt that more than one or two of the gouges I have will work on either of those jigs.

    I did learn a little more about the SVM-45, knife jig, which Derek suggested I try on drawknives. The Tormek chart also suggests the SVM-45 as the jig for drawknives. I was having some success with that jig on my drawknives previously and I believe, armed with the new information, I can do a good job of sharpening drawknives. This jig came with the Tormek kit I bought so I have it.

    I also have an axe jig that I need to experiment with. The video shows axes being ground with the tool rest in the high position which isn't happening with a low Tormek BGM-100 rest on the bench grinder with CBN wheels, so I have testing to do.
    Mike,

    I have been watching Tormek videos as well. Kind of tired of them already. I also wondered about Hans' recommendation of the SVS-32 for gouges. I get the idea of using the SCD-185 for the dog leg gouges because you need to be able to move the tool laterally and also twist it. I also thought that the SVS-50 would be the tool of choice for bent gouges, but the Tormek site seems to indicate that they're really for straight gouges. I was going to get the SVS-32 just because it's pretty cheap and I'm thinking there may be something about the geometry of the bent gouges that make it better than the SVS-50.

    I also wonder about which angle setting tool to get. I don't really understand the difference between using the 100 and the 200. I get that the 100 is meant for turning tools, but I don't really understand the difference between the two. On their face, they both seem to do the same thing, but I'm sure there are significant differences.

    More studying to do.

    Steve

  4. #64
    I use a WorkSharp and a couple of Shapton stones. You can see my system here. I teach hand cut dovetails and the students use my chisels so I have to sharpen a bunch of chisels after every class - so I want a system that's quick, easy, and produces a good edge.

    For plane blades, I do the same thing but establish the bevel on the top of the WorkSharp, then put a secondary bevel on with the stones - usually just the 8,000 stone.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  5. #65
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    Hi Mike. That's very close indeed to the system i've been using - and our experience is very closely matched. Right down to the diamond disc on the Worksharp, caution about its build quality (although mine is still working fine), and using the Veritas Mk 2 guide off the aftermarket top platform. I experienced some of the same issues with getting a good grip clamping a chisel, and posted a fix based on using a diamond nail file to make facing plates for the clamp a couple of momths or so ago. My Japanese chisels though are sharpened single bevel.

    I guess the one limit I have run into with this set up is that while it as advertised does a great job on sharpening, it doesn't shift metal fast enough to substantially re-angle the primary bevel on a plane blade like a BU - or cut a new bevel. Hence the plan to try a different set up based on a bench grinder with CBN wheels for heavy duty metal removal. The WorkSharp will be held in reserve for finishing bevels if it proves awkward to angle them accurately enough or to a fine enough level of finish on the CBN wheels...

  6. #66
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    Hi Mike, all. This is another very nicely made tool rest (machined from solid alloy), with various versions available: http://www.woodworkersemporium.com/i...tty%20platform

    Glenn Lucas who helped me out by letting me trial his CBN wheels uses one of these to sharpen his turning tools. The maker is a US based English guy named Stuart Batty.
    Last edited by ian maybury; 11-11-2014 at 5:13 AM.

  7. #67
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    Good link Ian. I am having a problem figuring out how to sharpen some of the tools I have. There are special jigs, particularly those made by Tormek and Wolverine, which are reported to help sharpen turning tools and gouges. I just can't seem to tell which jigs may or may not work with some of the large gouges etc. that I have. It seems that most jigs do not handle the larger tools. Apparently the large tools are typically sharpened using a simpler rest like the one you linked us to.

    I am awaiting delivery of a Veritas Grinding Jig and Toolrest or I would probably order the rest above. I still may order one but I am leaning towards the Tormek BGM-100 Grinder Jig. I have an investment in jigs that fit the Tormek Jig and those jigs could be used on both the Tormek Grinder and my Bench Grinder. I think the Tormek jigs are very helpful for specific turning tools. I just do not use the type of turning tools those jigs are best at, yet. I hate to add a manually powered lathe to my list of projects but I am thinking I may end up going there. I like making Windsor Chairs and it might be nice to be able to turn my own legs. The big electric lathes are expensive and I am not excited about adding more dust to the air in my shop. If I find I can make a lathe that will keep dust at a minimum I imagine I will be all in.

    Apparently the complex curves on relatively common turning tool edges are hard to reproduce without a special jig. As best I can tell, these special turning jigs are unique in that they control the tools path over the grinder in two or three dimensions instead of just one.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post
    The Batty gauge makes quick work out of setting the Veritas grinding stand right, first shot. I don't want anything "better" for chisels and irons, which is about all I use it for anyway.
    I am not familiar with the Batty gauge referred to in Tom's post above. I have a Veritas tool rest enroute and I'd like to ensure I install it squarely to the grinder. Any info on this would be much appreciated. Thanks.

    Brad

  9. #69
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    Brad, Veritas makes a device for setting basic angles by just adjusting one of the devices sides to rest on the jig's shelf and the other against the wheel. This device and a device for holding chisels and plane blades comes with the Veritas Basic Grinding Set, I called to double check that. I think you get the angle setting jig even if you just order the Veritas Grinder Tool Rest as the angle jig is in the picture they show. When I checked on the Veritas Basic Grinding Set I ordered I was told I would get everything in the picture on the LV web site. I am guessing you will get a jig to help you set angles with your order, but check the LV site picture for the specific jig or set of jigs you ordered.

    I think if you check Tom's picture above you will see a white device laying next to Tom's LV tool rest. I think this is an angle setting device made by Batty?
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 11-12-2014 at 2:42 PM.

  10. #70
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    Actually if you follow Ian's link above it will take you to a site for Stuart Batty, apparently a recognized wood worker/turner who makes (SB Tools): a tool rest, turning tools, Batty Angle gauges...If you want to see the gear Batty sells, including the various angle setting devices, I would go to... woodturning.org/products, instead of following Ian's link to what I believe is a Blog for an organization Stuart Batty and others have.

    Although Batty's angle setting gauge is probably designed to work with his tool rest I assume that Tom has discovered it works with the Veritas rest too.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 11-12-2014 at 2:50 PM.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Holbrook View Post
    Tormek ... I seem to spend way more time that others say is necessary and wind up with incorrect bevels, that is bevels that are not perpendicular to the edge of the blade.
    Mike, you might want to pull your shaft and look at it and the plastic (nylon) bearings. Years ago when I gradually developed the problem you mention, I discovered the shaft and bearings had corroded and eroded leaving the shaft and guide/slide bar out of parallel. Thus, when I thought I was truing the stone perfectly with the diamond tool, I was actually creating a cone, not a cylinder. Then, since the relative location on the stone of truing differed from the relative location where I was presenting a tool edge, I was guaranteed a grind that would not be perpendicular to the side edge of tool. As well, the hollow grind always looked misaligned and had a conical section (erroneously implying sloppy alignment of the tool in the tool clamp).

    There are now several discussions of this Tormek problem on the WWW, such as:

    http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/t...gs-t78317.html

    Like others, I replaced my old shaft and bushings (at what I thought was an outrageous parts cost) and the problem has been solved for the time being at least.

    http://www.tormek.com/en/spare_parts/index.php

  12. #72
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    Bob, good tip. I am aware that older Tormek's had problems with shaft's... rusting up\out. I was checking on replacing my machine's with one of the newer stainless ones the other day but so far have not determined what is the best option for a Tormek 2000 like mine. I did register the machine the other day and I will be messaging Tormek soon re appropriate options. I may try calling them as I have other jig questions too. I am still trying to figure out what I want on my shaft, at the moment I have just the one leather wheel....

    A visual check of my machine does not reveal a problem as of yet and unless my Starrett square is bad off my wheel is right on square....for the moment at least.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 11-12-2014 at 4:22 PM.

  13. #73
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    There are several different Batty gauges that cover different angles. For chisels and irons, one covers what you need. I don't remember which one that is, but it should be obvious. They fit an 8" wheel perfectly, which is always the case with the CBN wheel. It will work on any flat rest. If you also use the Veritas guide that clamps onto the grindee piece, you need to make a spacer just to compensate for the thickness of the guide when setting the rest angle to the wheel. I like it, because it works fast, and eliminates guesswork, and fumbling. The thing that comes with the guide maybe is better than nothing, but it still leaves some guesswork.

    Most of the time, my helpers do the honing with a guide, so it's nice for them to be easily, and quickly able to grind something to the exact bevel that sets up the next step correctly for a honing guide.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Mike, since realizing that cambers on the thick BU blades would be difficult on all but a 25 degree primary bevel, my recommendation has been only get blades with a 25 degree bevel. You can nominate this when purchasing a new plane from LV. However, if you have blades that came with higher primary bevels, the choice is whether to grind them or not. I ground mine to 25 degrees.

    Grinding a 38/50 degree primary to a 25 degree primary is easier than the other way around since the grind will take place at the rear of the primary, away from the thin steel at the sharp end. Yes, it will take some time, especially as you want to keep the steel cool, but it is not a big deal.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Bu blades with a 38/50 degree flat bevel offer an increase in the total effective cutting angle. (bed + primary). A design feature most advantageous for reducing tear-out. By regrinding the primary bevel back to 25 degrees you are then reducing the effective cutting angle back to 37 degree. Now suited only for end grain work.

    http://www.leevalley.com/us/shopping...px?p=55139&c=3
    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 11-12-2014 at 5:04 PM.

  15. #75
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    Stewie, if you read the earlier posts, you will understand that your quotes are out of context (while being factually correct).

    For BU planes, high cutting angles with camber (e.g. 62 degrees) are achieved by adding a 50 degree micro secondary bevel to a low 25 degree primary bevel. The low 25 degree primary bevel means that there is less steel to remove than if attempting to camber a high primary bevel, such as the 50 degree blade that LV sell. The latter are only suited to high angle straight bevels.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

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