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Thread: Grinding and shaping bevels

  1. #76
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    Thanks Derek. I understand what your suggesting now. So for the benefit of others who may wish to replicate what you practice; you are using a belt sander to apply the flat 25 degree primary bevel and the cambered profile.


    You also only apply a hollow grind to your chisels, and not your plane irons.


    Stewie;
    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 11-12-2014 at 8:55 PM.

  2. #77
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    Stewie, I hollow grind ALL my blades: chisels, BU and BD plane blades ...

    The only difference is that I freehand hone BD plane blades and chisels, and use a honing guide for high angle BU plane blades (free handing the low angle ones).

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  3. #78
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    My apologies Derek. I was referencing this from your site; http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Woodwor...aneBlades.html

    But you are discussing another method from your site; http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Woodwor...gStrategy.html

    Its a tad confusing.

    Stewie;
    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 11-12-2014 at 10:49 PM. Reason: correction

  4. #79
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    Stewie,
    I have posted here quiet a few times over the quiet a few years and over the years have spent many hours studying Derek's research/tool tests..... In my experience if you think Derek posted something wrong/questionable chances are you need to research his posts and or web site a little deeper. Most of what Derek posts is backed up by considerable personal testing and experience. Check out Derek's post on this subject and then his long list of other sharpening, tool reviews....on his web site:

    http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Woodwor...aneBlades.html

    PS-Opps you found it while I was posting. I have been studying that information on Derek's site for some time too, it takes a while to digest ;-)
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 11-12-2014 at 11:23 PM.

  5. #80
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    To be fair to Derek his methods, pages and comments (as for all of us) may demonstrate some evolution over time - and are written to communicate useful methods and principles rather than step by step procedures to be blindly followed.

    The essential bit of information in this case is just that it's much easier to add camber to a base 25 deg primary bevel on a BU plane blade - whether by grinding, or by honing. The key enabler in the method is the well known principle that the wood when being planed sees just the angle of the micro bevel - even though it's very narrow...

    We each need to figure out an actual procedure that works given our own situation, preferences and equipment. e.g. some of us have been posting of exploring the use of CBN wheels as an alternative to sanding belts, disc sharpeners or 3X AlOx wheels - if only to deliver faster metal removal rates for much less heat on heavy metal removal jobs like re-angling primary bevels. (i mistakenly bought a bunch of high angle BU irons a few years ago…)

    Grinding (in my case flat) cambered bevels off the side of the wheel is as a result going to require a DIY fixture...

    I'm in the early stages of using the 25 deg primary bevel method on my BU planes (haven't yet tried it in situations requiring heavier cambers, or very steep micro bevels), but so far it works very well - giving very sharp edges and easily achieved low cambers. All my cambers so far have been put on over straight primary bevels with the Veritas Mk 2 guide (with cambered roller in) during honing - i haven't yet needed to grind in a camber. Sharpening a factory ground scrub plane blade (Veritas) has meanwhile shown that a honing guide is usable to hone microbevels on even very highly cambered blades - even if the result of the geometry is some minor variation in the angle of the microbevel across the edge. (the Veritas guide can do it, but one with a narrow roller and lots of clearance so it can tilt side to side is probably better)

  6. #81
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    My Veritas Basic Grinding Set is suppose to be on a UPS truck out for delivery so I hope to finally get to grind some bevels with the CBN wheels today myself Ian.

    I found Stuart Batty's site for the rest he makes and was glad to see he makes versions that will work on up to 2" wheels. Stuart's rest looks like the most solidly made rest I have seen. I see he makes a "Chisel Jig" that fits all his rests. It appears to work similarly to the Veritas Grinding Jig but looks like it may be a little sturdier. I hate to cut up the Veritas tool rest to make it handle larger wheels but I guess that is what I will do, should be fairly easy with a Dremel or Fein metal cutting wheel or blade and a hacksaw. If I had it to do over I would probably order the Batty tool rest although I would like to hear from someone who has actually used one.

    I want to experiment with the simpler Veritas device before ordering any Tormek or Batty solutions. I suspect some of the larger tools I use want fit in most of the Tormek jigs. The larger round Batty platform looks like it might actually be the best for working larger tools. The 4" Veritas base may be too small. The Tormek rests (I have the old & newer models) are about the size and same square/rectangular shape as the Veritas, except they have no slot in the table to fit around the wheel.

  7. #82
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    One more question for all you grinders out there. I have put a fair amount of time into researching various jigs, especially Tormek's jigs. These jigs typically work on the base, shelf/metal rod. It seems like many of these jigs are specific to turning tools and have a very limited applicability to the more basic wood working tools. The Veritas rest has a slot for a sliding chisel/plane blade jig that I think I would use. I also have a similar jig on my Tormek. Unfortunately it seems that other than a solid shelf there is not much out there that will help with most of the tools I sharpen. Tormek has an axe jig, but I am not sure it will serve better than a large solid shelf. The same may be true of sharpening drawknives. Tormek makes a knife jig that helps some with sharpening them but I am not sure a large shelf would not serve better.

    I have two CBN wheels with rounded edges. One wheel even has abrasive on the side of the wheel. I am wondering if a simpler larger shelf that wraps around the side of the wheel might actually be more helpful than some collection of more specifically designed jigs?

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Holbrook View Post
    One more question for all you grinders out there. I have put a fair amount of time into researching various jigs, especially Tormek's jigs. These jigs typically work on the base, shelf/metal rod. It seems like many of these jigs are specific to turning tools and have a very limited applicability to the more basic wood working tools. The Veritas rest has a slot for a sliding chisel/plane blade jig that I think I would use. I also have a similar jig on my Tormek. Unfortunately it seems that other than a solid shelf there is not much out there that will help with most of the tools I sharpen. Tormek has an axe jig, but I am not sure it will serve better than a large solid shelf. The same may be true of sharpening drawknives. Tormek makes a knife jig that helps some with sharpening them but I am not sure a large shelf would not serve better.

    I have two CBN wheels with rounded edges. One wheel even has abrasive on the side of the wheel. I am wondering if a simpler larger shelf that wraps around the side of the wheel might actually be more helpful than some collection of more specifically designed jigs?
    I have wondered that for some tools.... I think that the axe jig is an excellent example. I think that long blades are another excellent example, since there will be more flex (and thus less consistent angles) for tools with a longer cutting edge.

  9. I think Tormek is discouraging you from trying this because a dry grinder is usually spinning at high speed downward. toward the tool. With the jig you are discussing, Tormek recommends the lower tool rest, and the wheel is spinning slowly and _away_ from the tool. The angles and the jig geometry may lead to safety issues.

  10. #85
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    An update on my CBN wheels and the tool rests I am using.

    I am finding that my fine wheel 220, from WoodTurners Wonders (WT), heats up faster than the coarser wheel. So far it has not been enough heat to cause problems with how I use this wheel but it is noticeable compared to the 180 wheel I have from D-Way (DW). I think the reason is the fine grit not anything having to do with the quality etc. of the two wheels. The DW wheel has radiuses on it's edges. The WT wheel has radiuses continuing into flat sides (about 1") on either side of the wheel.

    I am using two different tool rests. I am using the standard Lee Valley tool rest with the sliding plane/chisel holder on the fine WT wheel. I have a unique, large, sturdy Stuart Batty rest with a radius in the edge that I have mounted at the 180 DW wheel. At present I use the coarser wheel with the heavy duty rest for grinding radiuses directly into the edges of plane blades. I use the LV rest with the sliding tray that can hold a plane blade 90 degrees to the wheel surface to grind or finish my 30 degree bevels in the edge of the blades.

    I was concerned at first because the Batty rest could not be mounted next to my Delta Variable Speed grinder, as per the instructions, due to the shape/location of the base. I could not get any support from Woodworker's Emporium or Batty concerning mounting it. At that point in time Batty was apparently having issues getting his rests manufactured and Woodworker's Emporium was the only place that had stock.... I finally mounted the rest in a less than ideal position, with the base of the rest sticking out in front of the rest itself. So far this apparently unconventional mounting method has not caused issues in actual use. I find the larger sturdier rest is helpful in grinding bevels with sizable 7-8" radiuses. The curved sides of the rest are helpful, although not essential, in hand grinding even curves. I like the large, very steady rest.

    The WT wheel is a little narrower (1 1/4" wide vs 1 1/2" for the DW). I think the more complicated wheel was made a little thinner simply to hold down abrasives costs on the wheel with the additional abrasive on the sides. I had to cut a larger recess in the LV tool rest to make room for the CBN wheel, which is wider than conventional abrasive wheels. The fine WT wheel required a little less work and left a little more rest area on the smaller LV rest than if I had adapted the LV rest for use with the wider/coarser grit CBN wheels.

  11. #86
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    Hi Mike. Good to get an update. Glad to hear the Baty rests are good - the one I saw here was beautifully made and worked really well. Dead solid. He's reportedly having problems with production - could be it's hard to get them done at a low enough cost to be competitive. Guess the trick with the 220 wheel might be to use it only for lighter finishing cuts.

    I got my Woodturner's Wonders 80 and 180 grit CBN wheels bored locally to fit the unusual 18mm shaft diameter of my UK sourced low speed grinder - they are running very true which is a relief. I found it helped to fit spherical washers as WTW recommend both sides of each wheel - they reduce any tendency of a tapped slightly out of alignment nut or shaft thread to slightly bend the shaft and tilt the wheel as they are done up tight. I got a bit of shock with one wheel (thinking it had been bored off line) when i did it up at first, but the washers fixed the wobble. WTW have them available in 5/8in dia to suit the stock bore of their wheels and many US grinders, but i had to dig some up locally to fit my 18mm shafts.

    Some grinders may benefit from this, and some not - but anybody buying Eastern made budget grinders (even the better ones) would definitely be advised to test one with a dial gauge on the bare spindle (with the wheels off) - as judging by the batch i was lucky enough to be allowed to work through there are good ones (true running) and not so good. They realistically speaking are in engineering terms not necessarily manufactured to very tight tolerances. One with moderate runout may seem to grind OK, but it'll probably preferentially wear the high section of the wheel. A really bad one might even bounce the work being ground about.

    You may remember i'm setting up to grind flat bevels on Japanese and other tools off the side faces of the wheels - which was why the WTW with their wide side faces were such a find for me. I have the hardware to build the required fixture/work table to enable use of a Veritas Mk 2 honing guide while doing this (laid out as the accessory top working surface of a WorkSharp) from Tufnol (fabric reinforced phenolic sheet), but got stalled by diverting into another project.

    Will report in due course...
    Last edited by ian maybury; 03-05-2015 at 4:17 PM.

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