chopping a mortice with a regular bench chisel?

[David Weaver]

There is no lack of free material to pull from to learn from someone other than a hack. Some people learn better face to face, especially people who need to have someone telling them what to do and how to do it. And others learn better by getting a set of principles and figuring it out.

There is one that that has been almost universally true in everything I've ever done, and that is that if you can't take some basic principles and come up with the details on your own, you'll never own the knowledge. If you can, you will.

Ask George who originated the mortising method he used. Ask him who taught him to plane a board, or cut a tenon. I don't know what he'll say, but I doubt he'll "say master so and so showed me how to do it this way and I've never wandered". I'd imagine an awful lot of what makes George George is his ability to see what he wants to build before he builds it, and an ability to figure out another way to do something when something doesn't work. It's partially from talent, but also a lot from drive and experience.

IIRC, what George has said was that he studied every second he could with Will Riemann, and has picked up information from masters of their crafts along the way since then, but we are describing an entirely different plane of accomplishment that got George to that point (needing to learn from someone like Will Riemann) in the first place.

Still, aside maybe from not thinking ahead of time about what someone wants to achieve, I think most people are lacking experience more than anything else. The trouble is they don't have the experience to know that's what they're lacking.

[Matthew N. Masail]

There is no lack of free material to pull from to learn from someone other than a hack. Some people learn better face to face, especially people who need to have someone telling them what to do and how to do it. And others learn better by getting a set of principles and figuring it out.

There is one that that has been almost universally true in everything I've ever done, and that is that if you can't take some basic principles and come up with the details on your own, you'll never own the knowledge. If you can, you will.

Ask George who originated the mortising method he used. Ask him who taught him to plane a board, or cut a tenon. I don't know what he'll say, but I doubt he'll "say master so and so showed me how to do it this way and I've never wandered". I'd imagine an awful lot of what makes George George is his ability to see what he wants to build before he builds it, and an ability to figure out another way to do something when something doesn't work. It's partially from talent, but also a lot from drive and experience.

IIRC, what George has said was that he studied every second he could with Will Riemann, and has picked up information from masters of their crafts along the way since then, but we are describing an entirely different plane of accomplishment that got George to that point (needing to learn from someone like Will Riemann) in the first place.

Still, aside maybe from not thinking ahead of time about what someone wants to achieve, I think most people are lacking experience more than anything else. The trouble is they don't have the experience to know that's what they're lacking.

well said....

[steven c newman]

If Matthew is still looking for that 1/4" beater chisel? I have been using a Stanley "Fat Max" 1/4" chisel for chopping mortises. Does NOT bend when prying out waste, either. I also use a Bevel edge chisel to pare the side walls as needed. Might get a 3/8" wide one, one of these days. I tend to save the chisels from deep work, old school way, and drill out the waste in the deep mortises FIRST. Then a simple, easy pare to clean things up. Just the way things go in a Dungeon Shop....

[Pat Barry]

Ask George who originated the mortising method he used. Ask him who taught him to plane a board, or cut a tenon. I don't know what he'll say, but I doubt he'll "say master so and so showed me how to do it this way and I've never wandered". I'd imagine an awful lot of what makes George George is his ability to see what he wants to build before he builds it, and an ability to figure out another way to do something when something doesn't work. It's partially from talent, but also a lot from drive and experience.

IIRC, what George has said was that he studied every second he could with Will Riemann, and has picked up information from masters of their crafts along the way since then, but we are describing an entirely different plane of accomplishment that got George to that point (needing to learn from someone like Will Riemann) in the first place.

David, not everyone is a savant like George. He may be what they call a 1 percenter over on Fox. 99% of us need instruction. Obviously some (me) more than others (you).

[Max Withers]

Data point only: I tried a half inch through mortise in 4/4 poplar with a Narex bench chisel, and it went a little faster than the Narex mortise chisel. Maybe a little harder to keep the sides straight?

[David Weaver]

Data point only: I tried a half inch through mortise in 4/4 poplar with a Narex bench chisel, and it went a little faster than the Narex mortise chisel. Maybe a little harder to keep the sides straight?

That's pretty much the case, the trouble is when you get into deep mortises in less than perfect wood, faster ends up being not faster (getting everything right and having each stroke countand you shouldn't have to have a white knuckle grip on a chisel to cut a mortise). Fastest becomes whatever keeps you in rhythm in work.

[Jim Koepke]

Data point only: I tried a half inch through mortise in 4/4 poplar with a Narex bench chisel, and it went a little faster than the Narex mortise chisel. Maybe a little harder to keep the sides straight?

I think with my 1/2" mortise chisel and my big bopper mallet it would only take a whack or two from each side to get through.

jtk

[Adam Cruea]

This is actually the point of Mr Sellers demo. I certainly am with you Steven - finding a mortise chisel is difficult. There are 20 bench chisels out there for every mortise chisel. Mr Sellers is demo'ing that its possible to use the common bench chisel for those of us that don't have the wide variety. In fact, for a pro like him, using the bench chisel is not an inconvenience. The fact that he can do the work as quickly is purely intended to demonstrate that you don't NEED a mortise chisel for the occasional mortise.

Did the man actually state that we should all (at least those that have them) throw away our mortise chisel or stop using them? Gimme a break - Why is it that everyone wants to read more into things than are actually presented?

On the other hand, lets say you have a 1/4" mortise chisel. Now make me a 3/8" or 1/2" mortise with it please. I bet in this particular case, where you are not right up the sweet spot of the 1/4" mortise chisel you would still be using your bench chisel for a large amount of the work.

Not really. I made 16 mortises in my hickory bench that were 1 1/4" with a 1/2" mortise chisel and only reached for a bench chisel when I needed to gradually take off some material from the tenon to get it to fit.

I actually *tried* to use a bench chisel (for some mortises 2 inches deep to through-mortises in laminations of 3 3/4") and the bench chisel twists like crazy as well as flexing when trying to chop the mortise quickly. I could only drive the bench chisel down about 1/4" before leveraging out waste; with the pig sticker, I could drive down a good 1/2" and still easily leverage out waste and move quickly onto my next chopping.

Just $.02. It all depends on to whom you're dealing with. Some people can drive a semi like it's a Prius, others drive a Prius like it's a triple-trailered semi (that is to say, very awkwardly).

[Chris Fournier]

And once again the Neanders have managed to take a simple process and mask it in highly technical and mysterious/controversial tooling and processes. Why?

Take the time to visit some heritage woodworking sites, imagine wood fired or no fire heating in natural lit conditions, sweating or freezing depending on the season, tools knocked out by a blacksmith. Did these master craftsman have this discussion? I doubt it. They had to produce and get paid, they knocked out craft that we revere to this day, no time to navel gaze. They were taught, imitated, and mastered simple skills and through practice became masters in their own right. Hell they didn't use a Tormek or a diamond plate and I doubt that they engaged in a "one stone challenge". They were woodworkers and learned their craft at the bench when they had the chance to step up to the bench.

Why not do the same? Step up to your bench, buy some pretty inexpensive tools (say $60 bucks for a BE and mortise chisel) and try it out for yourself. Then and only then will you be on your way to understanding and developing your own skill set. Once you can do it, you'll know well enough how to do it better.

The bench don't lie. The internet ain't no bench.

[Noah Wagener]

Nobody commented on his technique of holding the chisel so that the bevel is plumb rather than the back. Seems like wasted energy but it makes it easier to "leever". This is the video of chopping behind glass, right?

I do not see how he could rub so many people the wrong way. He seems almost meek in expressing his technique and he is certainly not dogmatic. In fact, the place that sells those Ray Iiles chisels that so many have brought up here to refute him has a blurb from him saying they are the best chisels he has ever used.

Can those things be sharpened with Arkansas stones?

If a pigsticker had its tang ground to fit a small handle can it be fixed?

[Adam Cruea]

Nobody commented on his technique of holding the chisel so that the bevel is plumb rather than the back. Seems like wasted energy but it makes it easier to "leever". This is the video of chopping behind glass, right?

I do not see how he could rub so many people the wrong way. He seems almost meek in expressing his technique and he is certainly not dogmatic. In fact, the place that sells those Ray Iiles chisels that so many have brought up here to refute him has a blurb from him saying they are the best chisels he has ever used.

Can those things be sharpened with Arkansas stones?

If a pigsticker had its tang ground to fit a small handle can it be fixed?

They're D2. . .so I doubt they could easily be sharpened on an Ark stone.

[Simon MacGowen]

Just sounds like another exchange on tails first or pins first. Each camp insists that their is better. Paul is one successful teacher that I think no others could compare to when it comes to generating practices, discussions, new thinking and even new techniques. My neighbor had never tried mortising but Paul's Youtube video was what it caused him to start cutting mortises and tenon joints. I am lending him my mortising chisels and he'll find out what would be the favorite mortising tools for him. I am sure BE chisels as demonstrated by Paul will work; I am happy with my mortising chisels and don\t plan to change my method. Those who have attended his classes can testify that Paul is no snake-oil salesman and what you see is what you get.

I am not a subscriber of his classes but so far, everything (the poor man's router included; yes I do have the Veritas router plane) I tried out after watching his free videos worked. It has been a fun journey (isn't that what woodworking is all about?) and I hope he will continue to show or create new ways of doing things that will spice up not only forum discussions but also those of us who like to try out new things. Whenever time allows, I try to show my students Paul's ways after the traditional or mainstream methods are covered.

Simon