Kudos to David Barron and his magnetic dovetail guides

[David Weaver]

I didn't say a chisel was a plane. A plane is a jig to hold a blade (chisel) to easily flatten a board. It makes the job of flattening a board much easier than doing it with just the blade.

It's only important to learn to saw to a line if you want it to be important. If that's not a skill you care to master then you can use a guide to help. There's nothing wrong with that.

It would be cumbersome to use a jig to make general saw cuts. If the only thing anyone ever wants to do is dovetails, then using a jig is fine. It's extremely unlikely to be the only saw cut one will make, and many others do not lend themselves well to jigs.

But again, the commentary about a plane just being a "jig" to hold an iron is a gross oversimplification. The design of the plane is more important than the specifications of the iron.

As to the earlier issue about skills, sawing to a line is a useful skill. Useful in that you can saw to any line you can mark if the saw can reach it. Planing a board with a chisel is not a useful skill, nor is it practical. It goes back to seeing what people did when they made a living making mid-range furniture (because most of us will never come close to making a good representation of high end professionally done furniture from 250 years ago, me included.

[David Weaver]

, and is the reason I'm likely to withdraw for even longer this time.

It would be a shame. I look forward to, and learn from them all. Who else is going to point me to the useful cherts?

[John Keeton]

The manner in which some of these threads deteriorate amazes me. Generally, it would seem that woodworkers, like other medium crafts (metal, clay) usually find themselves in one of three groups. Either you are primarily interested in the final outcome, simply do it for the therapeutic value, or you aspire to achieve excellence. Folks that are interested only in the outcome often become the source for automation, including anything from jigs to a factory process. Those that are simply into the therapeutic aspect don't care so much about the outcome or achieving a higher level of accomplishment, and simply gain enjoyment from the process itself - and that is OK.

But, the very fact that one is viewing or posting in the Neander forum would tend to place them in the group striving for excellence, or at the least, interested in how others have done that. The observation that few ever obtain the degree of skill and accomplishment as George may be accurate, but were it not for folks like George desiring to share not only what can be achieved, but how to achieve it, then we would find ourselves swirling in a mire of hopeless mediocrity.

For goodness sake, leave room for all groups and admire and be tolerant of those that push all of us to demand from ourselves excellence. If you find yourself in one of the other groups, then just enjoy the fact that without the George's of the world, the other two groups would not exist, because the finely crafted end product would never have been created. Without that product, and the process to create it, there would be no inspiration for automation nor therapy in the process.

I would add here that one finds this type of exchange most often in this forum. I say that both as a moderator and as one who traveled thru the Neander world for a while and enjoyed every step of the way! You guys have are an enormous source of talent and skill. Just enjoy what you have and leave the anger and jealousy at the door.

[Brian Ashton]

Brian,I must say that I just do not participate in things that I truly suck at. What is the point? I am not a good basketball player,in spite of being quite tall,so I haven't played it since the last time I HAD to in high school physical education classes. I can't swim worth 2 cents. My bones are too heavy to allow me to float. I never could pass swimming in college Phys ed. I never ever swim now.

I find it difficult to see why someone who is just terrible at some activity would persist in it. For me,at least,with lack of an ability comes lack of interest.

In college,we had a guy who was so miserable at doing skilled work of any kind (In the Industrial Arts program we were in) He just quit,and pursued some other field. All my fellow students were retired military guys going to college on the G.I. bill. I was the only student fresh out of high school. I would have thought that a middle aged,graying guy would already have found out that he was not cut out for teaching woodworking.

The old saying "If you can't stand the heat,get out of the kitchen" SORT of fits here.

That's great for you. But if everyone thought that way, most of us wouldn't try anything much beyond what we learned as children or young adults. As anyone that's passed their 30s knows, it's much harder to pick things up quickly when you're older and become relatively good at it... I for one am proud to be quite ignorant in that at 50 I will give most anything a go and not worry about how well I pull it off. I don't rate myself against anyone else, my only criteria is that I at least make small improvements... When I stop improving maybe it's time to find something else to do, but then maybe not if I'm still enjoying it. I played in some sports in Australia where we for the most part sucked really bad, but we enjoyed it, we kept in good shape as a result, so we didn't care. And more importantly no one else cared. I wouldn't change that for anything. If I took the stance of I'm no good at that so it's best I leave it alone I would have probably stayed on the couch and wasted all that time away.

My wife took up drums 3 years ago. Thankfully she didn't measure herself against the 12 year olds also taking lessons that in only a few months were banging out some very complex beats... She kept it up because she always wanted to play drums. She's not that good, and she knows that but she enjoys it.

[george wilson]

Or,you could stick with what you do well and get better at it,rather than lay on the couch. No one recommended that. Or,if you really want to try something new,try finding someone else to argue with.

I didn't mean to sound like I never tried ANY new things. I think the scope of my work shows that I have gone into several different fields: Guitars,banjos,lutes,harpsichords,violins,citterns ,even Orpharions. Then,guns,tools of all different types,18th. C. fire engine,giant cider press, working with horn,leather work, ivory,silver,gold,tool steels,scientific instruments,executive gifts,jewelry, knife making,surgical instruments and sharpening them, Machinist work. Is that enough for you? I have more. How much energy do you think I have? I'm getting tired just reading this list. Many of these things I didn't start until I was older,because I couldn't afford to,or didn't have the space.

[Bruce Page]

This thread has run its course.