Kudos to David Barron and his magnetic dovetail guides

[Sean Hughto]

At one end of the spectrum you would do nothing but flip a switch and a pre-loaded log would enter a machine at one end and spit out a complete piece of furniture at the other. At the other end, you chop down a tree, split out or pit saw boards, dry them, plane them, design a piece, etc. etc. Basically all of us are at some point between on this spectrum. Where one draws the lines for themselves is up to them. Make furniture, be happy.

My point is that these choices certainly effect our pleasure in the process, our results, and our sense of accomplishment, among other things. Everybody has different needs on these fronts, so they will all make different choices. What is useful to talk about is how the choices have effects on pleasure, results, and so forth. Then people can make better choices for themselves, having been informed as to what the implications of those choices are.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

George alludes to good points; and I think the biggest point in favor of not learning to rely on jigs is that that development of skill will allow you do lots of other amazing things; often things that you can't accomplish without jigs, or at least without spending more time on jigs and guides than the actual project. Learning to saw dovetails by hand is going to be a great part of learning how to cut things by hand; once you can do that, you find you can do things like odd, compound cuts on oddly shaped pieces that would require complex jigs and work holding if you were trying to make it work on say, a table saw. Once you learn to sharpen freehand, you learn to be able to sharpen lots of things that will never fit in your honing guide; etc., etc. If you have no interest in learning to craft things by hand, and just want some drawers, maybe a dovetail guide is a good solution. But if you purposefully don't expand your skill set, but want to continue creating things, eventually you may very well find yourself banging against a wall you were ill-prepared for.

[Daniel Rode]

I tend to work more simply as I become more skilled. This, for me, is not at all unique to woodworking or even physical skills in general. It's not that I abandon things that automate, guide or reduce effort, it's just that these things need to provide a high and regular value to be part of my toolset. With greater skill I no longer need aids, so most fall into disuse over time.

IMO, simple tools in skilled hands often produce the finest work with the greatest efficiency.

I prefer to spend the time learning to work without guides. For me, there is a satisfaction knowing I cut a joint with nothing but a saw, a chisel and a marking knife. I might think differently if this was my vocation instead of my hobby, but it's not.

[Prashun Patel]

The OP's endorsement for the product should stand as is; the guide seems well-made and the service was good. Saying it's bad and putting yourselves on higher ground than he or others who purchase feels petulant and superior.

What's worse? a crutch, or the person who kicks the person using the crutch?

Be a craftsman, not a craps-on-your-fellow-man.

[Steve Voigt]

What's worse? a crutch, or the person who kicks the person using the crutch?

Ha! I'd say it depends!
If the guy with the crutch has a broken leg, then the crutch-kicker is a heel.
But if the guy with the crutch is perfectly healthy, and could walk just fine without it, then the guy who kicks the crutch away is doing him a service.

[Darren Brown]

Prashun, that last line is with out a doubt the single best post I've ever read!

[Prashun Patel]

...only if the encrutched asks the other, "How do you like my crutch? I'm a good walker, huh?" But if he merely says, "I know a good crutch-maker", then shame on Jebbodiah Atkinson.

[John Dorough]

I just became aware of an article about David's guides that is both interesting and informative. Those interested in the guides might find it helpful.

Barron Dovetail Guide - Canadian Woodworking Magazine

All the comments to my original post have been interesting; they show just how diverse SMC's membership is, in terms of well-reasoned-yet-divergent opinions.

Thanks for the perspectives,

John

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

The OP's endorsement for the product should stand as is; the guide seems well-made and the service was good. Saying it's bad and putting yourselves on higher ground than he or others who purchase feels petulant and superior.

What's worse? a crutch, or the person who kicks the person using the crutch?

Be a craftsman, not a craps-on-your-fellow-man.

I guess I wasn't clear in my posts, and it was something I was hoping to avoid coming across as - my caveat of

I've no beef with people making whatever choice they want in regards to any sort of jigs. I want whoever's making something to be happy making it and get there however they want.

may not have been enough.

I certainly meant no ill will towards John, the original poster, and while I don't think I have specific interest in the dovetail guide (although I could perhaps see use at times for a 90 degree version) I think his endorsement of a quality product by a small manufacturer is useful information and I was glad he shared. He was quite clear in his post that he was simply praising the service and product of a company and not whether the guides were a needed product. Lord knows we all buy and use things that aren't "needed" in the strictest sense.

I was more commenting on the idea that seemed to profess that the jigs themselves helped one to to be a better sawyer rather than simply more adept at completing the task using jigs. There is nothing wrong with either of those things, but it depends on what your personal goal is. I think other posters also voiced this opinion, or one that that personally didn't find jigs a satisfying solution for their own goals in the craft. I don't think I saw their posts the same way it seems Prashun has, but I can also be seeing Prashun's post wrong!

I hope I didn't come off as disparaging to the original poster, or any others like Scott who expressed their enjoyment of these jigs. If I did so, I apologize.

Prashun's mention of crutches also alludes to a point that I wonder about - there are woodworkers who may have diminished motor facilities or other types of conditions; perhaps a jig like this may allow them to keep doing something they love, (working wood with fewer machines) despite the types of conditions that might make a hobby like this difficult.

[george wilson]

O.K.,the attacks have started. I try to give good advice,and this is what I get from some people. No one is trying to kick anyone. I think Joshua's post #32 above is well worded,and says what I was trying to say: Learning skills helps you to develop other skills.It adds up,skill upon skill. That is how you become a good craftsman. No one handed me my skills on a silver platter. I had to EARN them just like anyone else. And I reaped the rewards for staying on it and learning those skills. It was also much harder to acquire those skills when I was young. There were few books available(I couldn't afford them anyway at that time.),and no internet to learn from. So,I went up many a blind alley,and wasted a lot of effort finding out the right way to do things.

Sorry,you just cannot baby yourself into becoming a good craftsman. That's just the way it is in any field.

Would you rather be a person who learns skills,or one who stays at a beginning level? It's your choice. This statement assumes that no one is disabled,of course,and has no hinderance with using tools.

[Zach Dillinger]

If dt jigs make one happy than go for it, but in all reality, go back and look at the dovetails of the best craftsman of years past, and one cannot say that perfect dovetails are the mark of a good craftsman. They almost always looked pretty ragged compared to what people today think they should look like. People tend to overthink it, and with some regular simple practice, proficiency comes...

+100. No need to overthink something as simple as dovetails.

[Prashun Patel]

Point taken, George. I'm humble to your experience.

It just struck me that OP wasn't asking for advice on a purchase; he was reflecting on a good experience. It just felt like rain on his parade. I respect and agree with your sentiment - just questioned its applicability here.

[paul cottingham]

I have chronic nerve pain (and numbness!) in my hands, so positioning my hand accurately for dovetail cutting is tough, to say the least. I find the Lee Valley "crutch" very useful, and it allows me to cut dovetails without pulling out my hair infrustration.
The intriguing thing is, I am developing muscle memory from using the jig, so I believe I eventually will not need it. In the meantime, cutting dovetails is much more pleasant, and less aggravating. If I had found the Barron jigs first, I am sure I would have tried them.
Just my 2cents.

[george wilson]

You are the person who actually needs it,Paul,as we have mentioned.

[paul cottingham]

You are the person who actually needs it,Paul,as we have mentioned.

Oops, must have missed that! :-)