Contributor
Most grid tie solar systems quit making power when utility power is lost. That is how they prevent back feeding power into the grid. It is stupid that you have the ability to make your own electricity, but your power generation quits when power from the grid is lost.Originally Posted by Andrew Pitonyak
[OP]
Contributor
Jim,
Sure. We have a flat roof with a single ply membrane on it.
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We had our roofer do the waterproofing and the Solar company did the rest. The roof is actually white. Fine sand and salt breeze deposits it up three stories to the roof. We hose down the panels as needed. Obviously it needs it now.
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Installation showing stanchions, rails, and boots.
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Electrical panels, subpanel, satellite / phone connection, disconnect and inverter. About half of this was added. Unfortunately this is on the windward side of the house.
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Installed solar array. The orientation is southwest. The angle is optimized for summer and afternoon light. All hardware is marine stainless steel and powdercoated aluminum. The panels are US made.
There is a Wifi connection from the controller to our network for monitoring and trouble shooting. There is supposed to be an App where I can monitor from my iPhone. I don't have this connected yet. Update, I'll get monthly bills for taxes and connection fees but I will only get one annual bill for net consumption.
Last edited by Shawn Pixley; 05-20-2014 at 3:14 PM.
Shawn
"no trees were harmed in the creation of this message, however some electrons were temporarily inconvenienced."
"I resent having to use my brain to do your thinking"
[OP]
Contributor
The solar inverter must have AC power as well as DC power to work. In normal conditions, the inverter must align the phases with the grid's to connect. When the grid goes down, the system shuts off. I am sure that you could get a proper disconnect to align it with a standby generator when the grid is down. Or there could be a disconnect between the panel and the meter to allow the solar array to run with the grid down without killing linemen. Conversely, you can get battery back-ups to store power like a large UPS does. The longest time we have experienced an outage is about 4 hours when the transformer in the lot next to us died a couple of years ago.
Last edited by Shawn Pixley; 05-20-2014 at 3:20 PM.
Shawn
"no trees were harmed in the creation of this message, however some electrons were temporarily inconvenienced."
"I resent having to use my brain to do your thinking"
Member
The killer app for rooftop arrays is local power storage.
Power to a bank of batteries first, then through the inverter onto the grid.
The current problem is cost, volume and weight of existing batteries make this cost prohibitive.
Given the reliability of the power grid, even in a high demand area like Southern California,
the risk for a complete outage is vanishingly low.
A better solution than batteries is a battery backup generator "All in One" unit.
These have some storage capacity and sit on a pad next to the home.
No special rooms required.
I foresee EVs and plug in hybrids as the portable storage unit in the future.
The economy of scale comes into play in purchasing batteries.
I believe Tesla has floated this idea, but it's more a marketing ploy for them.
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/back-up-power.html
http://gas2.org/2011/08/03/the-nissa...wer-generator/
Member
It isn't a boo-hoo argument.Why should a residence that is providing peak hours supply to the grid be penalized?
That delivering power via the grid could become extremely expensive is not a valid reason to discourage adaptation of energy independance at the private citizen level.
Are you suggesting that we can not migrate away from the existing energy based economy?
Instituatoonal investors will find other places to park their money. As solar becomes more common, it's cost will go down and energy providers will have to compete. What happens if new construction decide to not bother to connect to the grid? Will the Edisons decide these properties must help fund the grid because they are denying the industry it's necessary growth?
Measure twice, cut three times, start over. Repeat as necessary.
Member
If you are suggesting we can, I suggest an experiment. Use no energy for 1 week. Of course we will have to await the end of the experiment to here you results. The internet runs on... energy, also
Member
I think I can understand what David Weaver is saying. For now, it isn't possible to operate an average home off the grid. In order for the grid to remain in place, the power company is going to have to make enough money to maintain and sometimes expand it and still make a profit. The result is that if more people adopt solar power, the rates per kwh are going to have to go way up to compensate or there will be a very high "grid access" fee independent of consumption that will make up for lost kwh revenue. In the long run, there will be no free ride until the power company umbilical cord is cut entirely.
Last edited by Art Mann; 05-20-2014 at 5:14 PM.
Guest
They should be compensated for the power they generate (whatever anyone else would get for generation), but probably not the distribution and transmission since they aren't actually doing either of those.
I'm suggesting that in the long term, we'll go whatever direction we're going to go. In the short term, we aren't going to tolerate a distribution system that can't handle peak demand when the weather isn't favorable for local power generation for a few days. To pretend that the system should ignore that fact is foolish.
Guest
Exactly. When we have no need for the grid, then there will be no need for a rational system compensating the people who own and operate the grid (and anyone who has provided them equity or purchased debt so they could do it). In the meantime, the grid still needs to be maintained and nobody is going to do it for free. Trying to "stick it" to "big companies" rationale is just another veiled version of "it's OK if I make money, and I get to decide what level of it is OK, but it's not OK for someone else to".
I like to believe I have no problem compensating people for providing me with a service. Otherwise, I shouldn't be using such a service because I wouldn't want to work for free, either. That's our short term situation. I also don't like to compensate people for a service I don't use, and that's more of a long term issue with the grid - probably (our prospects for solar where I am are poor, and even worse for wind).
Member
I'm in Livonia, MI. DTE Energy installed Openway Centron electronic meters. It has an interesting feature set. The LCD display provides all kinds of useless information. Current kilowatt usage? Sorry, no can do. But I can buy a gizmo that I plug in and use electricity to see how much electricity I'm using.
The reverse power being counted as normal usage was something I found out about online.
One feature that the meter has is my wireless outdoor thermometer is now all screwed up. If I want the thermometer to work I have to put a metal bucket over my fancy new meter.
For me it was not a win.
-Tom
Member
Michigan is a net metering state.
Somebody's misreading the regs...
http://www.michigan.gov/mpsc/0,4639,...124---,00.html
DTE charges for the maintenance and administration of connected power lines.
http://www.dteenergy.com/pdfs/netMeteringBrochure.pdf
Is your bill defining your PV supply to the grid as normal usage, and billing an administrative fee?
Do they credit your account at the retail price, per kW?
Member
We are a long way from a mass exodus from the grid by residential customers. I interpret the movement to tax PV and wind power as a shot across the bow. I don't believe the energy sector will cede their hold on society without a big fight. They have a vested interest in a continuation of the current system. They may argue that institutional investors would have less options or there wouldn't be enough customers to pay for the infrastructure, but I find their concerns transparent. They simply don't want residential housing off grid to catch on, even if it isn't fully ready for prime time.
I have to wonder what happens if PV and/or battery technology makes some major breakthrough and makes off grid practical. What then becomes of the energy sector when customers disconnect en masse?
I don't think there was ever a carburetor that was capable of producing 100 MPG performance that was bought and subsequently hidden by the oil companies to ensure demand for gasoline. But I don't doubt for a second that energy producers are prepared to prevent any technology that threatens their revenue.
Measure twice, cut three times, start over. Repeat as necessary.
Guest
In the long run, if there is a viable technology, we'll use it and any private industry that competes will lose. The surcharges and creative revenue generation will come via the government levels that lose revenue, though.
Moderator
Until solar is cost effective, it's not going to be mainstream. Promises of solar coming to a home near you and being affordable have been around for several decades now. The vast majority of solar installed is done by subsidizing it through tax breaks and credits. Without those, the ROI doesn't make sense. I have family that are directly impacted by power and spend their 9-5 job trying to find ways to reduce their power bill. They've looked at solar every way possible for their businesses and they have yet to be able to find a single instance of it making any sort of sense from a financial point of view.
Last time I spoke to him, the ROI on it was negative. The lifespan of the equipment was 20 years and the ROI was 24 (those numbers could be wrong, but it's the relationship between the two that is the point). So it'll be wore out before it's paid for itself.
Lasers : Trotec Speedy 300 75W, Trotec Speedy 300 80W, Galvo Fiber Laser 20W
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Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.
Member
If I understood an earlier post from Shawn, his electricity rates are around $0.36/kwh. That is 4 times the cost where I live. I can see why his setup might break even in just a few years. I have done a feasibility study for my own situation and the numbers aren't even close. It would be a losing investment for me, even if power rates go up 25%.
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