Hay Rake Table-ish-thingy...

[Harold Burrell]

OK...I've been wanting to ask this for a while, but I have been (quite frankly) afraid to...

I am building a hayrake style dining table for a young couple. I planned to go with the "Barnsley" styling (see below). However, the plans call for a 6' 4" top and these guys want it to be 8'+.

My concern is, well, the length. I'm afraid of the table sagging, I guess. So...my thought was to add a couple of rails. You can see my idea in my attached sketchup model pics.before.jpgafter.jpg

I'd be interested in knowing what you think.

[Jamie Buxton]

Just eyeballing, it looks like the top is going to be 1.5-2" thick, and 40" wide or so. I'm guessing it is going to be hardwood. That's a very stout slab. It might sag perceptibly if you park a truck on it. But as a dining table, it isn't going anywhere.

Or here's another way of looking at it... You have this big slab top that's 2" thick and 40" wide. You're considering adding rails that are maybe 2" wide and 2" tall. That is, the slab is way bigger than the rails. Do you think those little rails are going to change what the big slab is going to do?

[Harold Burrell]

Just eyeballing, it looks like the top is going to be 1.5-2" thick, and 40" wide or so. I'm guessing it is going to be hardwood. That's a very stout slab. It might sag perceptibly if you park a truck on it. But as a dining table, it isn't going anywhere.

Or here's another way of looking at it... You have this big slab top that's 2" thick and 40" wide. You're considering adding rails that are maybe 2" wide and 2" tall. That is, the slab is way bigger than the rails. Do you think those little rails are going to change what the big slab is going to do?

So...the table would be ok with or without the rails? You don't think it really matters?

[Dave Richards]

Whether or not the top would sag over its lnegth, you're on the right track with the long aprons. You should, if nothing else, check out Michael Pekovich's Hayrake Table. This is the base for it. The top is attached with buttons into the mortises along the long aprons well as the cross rails so it is attached but free to move with seasonal changes. I'd put the long rails in for that reason if nothing else. It'll also helped to stiffen the base. Consider a table that big and heavy is likely to get dragged when it needs to be moved. It wouldn't be a good idea to rely on only the joinery at the bottom to prevent the base assembly from racking.

[Jamie Buxton]

Dave's right: the lengthwise rails can help reduce racking, which would be a real issue.

However, to be picky about the details, I don't see any reason to bother with all those table buttons on the long rails. Buttons provide a sliding joint. They're good, or even required, on long cross-grain joints like the shorter rails which run across the slab. The long rails run the same grain direction as the slab top, and there's no need to allow for movement. I'd just glue the rails to the top. Or if you want to be able to separate the top from the base (a good thing for transportability), just run a couple of screws through the long rails into the top, without messing around with mortises and buttons and such.

[Dave Richards]

Gluing the top to the long rails or securing with screws could cause problems where the long rails are mortised into the crossing rails, though. Buttons allow the top to expand and contract without trying to move those long rails.

[Harold Burrell]

I was thinking more along the lines of maybe figure-eight fasteners along the rails, since the movement would be across them. Another option might be screws through elongated holes in the rails???

[Dave Richards]

As long as the top can expand and contract without trying to take the undercarriage with it, you should be fine. The long rails between the short ones really won't be able to move since the short rails won't change in length appreciably. The top needs to be able to move across those long rails and along the length of the short ones that are attached to the legs. Also give consideration to what is holding the top and undercarriage together when someone does pick it up to move it. They won't be picking it up by the legs. they'll lift it by the top so the fasteners will have to be able to support the weight of the rest of the table. That's a good reason for as many buttons as Mr. Pekovich used on his table.

[Harold Burrell]

As long as the top can expand and contract without trying to take the undercarriage with it, you should be fine. The long rails between the short ones really won't be able to move since the short rails won't change in length appreciably. The top needs to be able to move across those long rails and along the length of the short ones that are attached to the legs. Also give consideration to what is holding the top and undercarriage together when someone does pick it up to move it. They won't be picking it up by the legs. they'll lift it by the top so the fasteners will have to be able to support the weight of the rest of the table. That's a good reason for as many buttons as Mr. Pekovich used on his table.

Yeah, I was thinking all of that too. I do wonder, though...the buttons on the long rails of Mr. Pekovich's table...I don't see how they would help/work?

[Dave Richards]

When you install wooden buttons to secure a table top, they are not rammed all the way into the mortise. They have some room to move into and out of the mortise as they move with the top. The mortises on the end rails (running between the legs) are made long enough to allow the button to slide side to side in the mortise. Since the top won't change much in length, those buttons could be slid most of the way into their mortise.

If you were to use only the three buttons on each end, that's six wood screws connecting the top to the base. When the table gets picked up by its top, which it surely will, the entire weight of the base will be hanging on those six small screws. It might be alright. Might not.

The figure 8 fasteners don't allow the top to move much unless you use undersized screws and even then there's not much slack.

[Mike Hollis]

I just watched Michael Pekovich's entire video series on building that hay rake table. While it is a gorgeous piece, if I were to build this I think I would've used walnut for the pegs and tenon wedges just to add a little more character. I think I would've made the top a little beefier also to match the mass of the rest of the piece (top looks a little to delicate to my eye when comparing the the legs and stretcher.

I have used buttons and slots to attach the top to every table I have made, it is certainly the way to go in my opinion, for whatever it's worth.