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Thread: Are Your Glue Joints Repairable?

  1. #76
    Buy an old heat blanket at Goodwill, and temperature won't be a problem.
    “Perhaps then, you will say, ‘But where can one have a boat like that built today?’ And I will tell you that there are still some honest men who can sharpen a saw, plane, or adze...men (who) live and work in out of the way places, but that is lucky, for they can acquire materials for one third of city prices. Best, some of these gentlemen’s boatshops are in places where nothing but the occasional honk of a wild goose will distract them from their work.” -- L Francis Herreshoff

  2. #77
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    Thanks, looks like the Weldwood is gonna be the easist to get, but I'll check into it.
    Also wondering what would be wrong with using epoxies for outside work, like flower boxes, garden furniture and such?

    Not to fond of the heating required thing, but we'll see.

    Not exactly ready to throw out the titebond 3 yet, but always looking for new/better ways of doing things.

    Although, peeling the titebond off the fingers gave me something to do while the glue dried on whatever I was working on....

    Once again, thanks.

    Al
    Remember our vets, they need our help, just like they helped us.

  3. #78
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    Super thread as usual Bob, of course this thread was started some time ago, as usual it popped up just in time (almost) to answer a problem I ran into... I'm making legs for a sawhorse which are 2 boards long grain glued together w/ 1/2 mortises hogged out of each board like a trestle table base to form a complete mortise. I've already glued the two boards together w/ TB III and evidently did not use enough clamping pressure and have a hairline gap in between. I was trying to think of a way to fill in the gap. Dumb instinct told me not to fill w/ more TB III (whew) . And I was considering Epoxy just before I read this. Any suggestions for a filler? Anyone?
    The early bird gets the worm... but the second mouse gets the cheese!

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smalser View Post
    I've used plastic resin glue in most interior furniture and boat interior applications for over 40 years. At least a 55gal drum of the powder. Never had an inside joint break with it yet. I've used hot hide glue for chairs, musical instruments, hammer veneering, and trying chipped glass decorations. When the time comes for me to do more chairs, I'll use hot hide glue. Disassembly of epoxy is problematic.
    Since I love rehashing old, but great, threads...

    Bob, I was wondering why you use hide glue, instead of plastic resin for chairs? Is it because chair joints break/loosen more often than traditional furniture joints and hot hide glue is an easier repair when this happens?

    Also, have you done any of this testing with urea-modified hide glue and/or what is your opinion of adding urea to hide glue?

    Lastly, you mentioned before that you may be switching to poly for indoor work. Is this still true? Do you have an updated opinion? And is the poly you refer to Gorilla Glue (or Titebond equivalent) or the PL stuff?
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  5. #80
    I use hide glue all the time, so yes - my glue joints are repairable!



    Cheers,
    Jack Briggs
    Briggs Guitars

  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Klein View Post
    Since I love rehashing old, but great, threads...

    Bob, I was wondering why you use hide glue, instead of plastic resin for chairs? Is it because chair joints break/loosen more often than traditional furniture joints and hot hide glue is an easier repair when this happens?

    Also, have you done any of this testing with urea-modified hide glue and/or what is your opinion of adding urea to hide glue?

    Lastly, you mentioned before that you may be switching to poly for indoor work. Is this still true? Do you have an updated opinion? And is the poly you refer to Gorilla Glue (or Titebond equivalent) or the PL stuff?
    All round tenon joints eventually break from seasonal movement tyrning the tenon into an oval with little glue contact. Hide glue is easily renewable. The modern production solution is thickened epoxy but heaven help you if one the joints does eventually break, as you may destroy the assembly trying to dismantle it to get at the failed joint.

    I don't see any reason to mix glues. While hide glue is very strong, glue strength is an overrated misnomer, as glues only have to be as strong as the wood surface they are in contact with. All of them are unless operator headspace comes into play like when I once glued up a barn door in a driving rain using poly and found the limits for how much water poly likes.

    I still use UF resin for interior work and PL Premium, marine epoxy or resorcinol for exterior work, depending on what it is. One addition to the article would be that liquid poly like Gorilla Glue is useful for hot applications like laminating strips straight out of the steambox that are too hot for epoxy. The test boat where I used liquiid poly instead of epoxy for all the laminations still sits out in the weather year-round and has no problems after 4 years of it.
    Last edited by Bob Smalser; 12-05-2008 at 10:28 AM.
    “Perhaps then, you will say, ‘But where can one have a boat like that built today?’ And I will tell you that there are still some honest men who can sharpen a saw, plane, or adze...men (who) live and work in out of the way places, but that is lucky, for they can acquire materials for one third of city prices. Best, some of these gentlemen’s boatshops are in places where nothing but the occasional honk of a wild goose will distract them from their work.” -- L Francis Herreshoff

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smalser View Post
    I don't see any reason to mix glues.
    Bob, thanks for the reply.

    However, I think you misunderstood my second question regarding urea-modified hide glue.

    I didn't mean mixing UF resin glue with hide, but adding urea to hot hide glue (to extend open time), essentially making liquid hide glue or Old Brown Glue from Patrick Edwards.
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  8. #83
    I'm glad this post was resurrected.
    Been doing a lot of repairs as of late and knowing now that epoxy bonds so well to old glue it'll help in that I don't have to remove so much of the old glue as I have been.

  9. #84
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    Please correct me…

    I had set aside a planned project, but it may be resurrected now:

    A white oak lutyen's bench, made in southern california where I can find 70° days often. It will be outside but under a porch. Mostly dry, short humid rainy season, temps between 30 and 110°.

    What I am reading here tells me to use:

    1) Resorcinol, or

    2) Marine Epoxy.

    Did I get that right?
    Veni Vidi Vendi Vente! I came, I saw, I bought a large coffee!

  10. #85
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    Brian,

    Did you ever build the lutyen's bench? And, if you did, which glue did you use?

    Also, a bump for this thread, as others may also be interested in the information herein...


    .
    Al
    http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/fotc.gif
    Sandal Woods - Fine Woodworking

  11. #86
    I'm only moving this to the last page where it's handier to refer folks to.

    General Notes on Glues and Goos


    Resorcinol: The marine standard. If you can get 70 degrees F or higher for an overnight cure and consistent and high clamping pressure with no gaps, you won’t go wrong using it. Cover it overnight with an electric blanket to make sure. Likes wood at 10-15% EMC, according to Navy tests. Long open time. Repairable with epoxy. Ugly red glue line.

    Marine Epoxy: The repair and restoration standard. Bonds well to a wide variety of materials, and usable in almost all flexibility and temperature conditions. Needs no clamping pressure, only contact…fills gaps well. Likes wood below 12% EMC. Repairable with itself, joints can often be broken apart for repair with using heat. Clear glue line and can be dyed to match the wood. Controllable open time with different hardeners. Slightly permeable to water vapor and there are reports of failures in fully saturated wood and with White Oak. Very sensitive to UV, requiring protection, and doesn't like heat. If you are scarfing planks that will require steambending, use resorcinol instead.

    3M 5200: A rubbery, polyurethane sealant in various colors with adhesive properties sometimes used as a glue. Fails as a glue under water saturation without high clamping pressure, and without the proper strength testing I couldn’t do here, it’s not recommended as a stand-alone marine glue. Repairable with epoxy.

    Liquid Polyurethane: Gorilla Glue, Elmer’s Probond, Elmer’s Ultimate, and others. Versatile in temperature and bonding wet wood with moderate open time, these glues aren’t rated for below waterline use but initial use shows potential as a marine glue. Likes high clamping pressure and fits similar to resorcinol…it won’t fill gaps. Will successfully glue green wood at 30% EMC. Repairable with epoxy. Doesn't mind heat...poly can be used to glue steamed laminations without cooling them first. Noticeable, yellow-brown glue lines.

    PL Premium Construction Adhesive: This polyurethane goo shows promise as a marine glue with further testing and use. Works like 3M 5200 but cures and behaves like liquid poly. Appears to bond well to everything epoxy does, and more where epoxy and liquid poly won’t, perhaps because of a higher isocyanate content…it bonds to difficult surfaces only cyanoacrylate super glues will bond to. The only general-use glue I’ve found that will bond difficult aliphatic-contaminated surfaces. Appears flexible to temperature and moisture content with gap-filling ability, but as a construction adhesive, its open time is shorter than liquid poly. Appeared to like high clamping pressure, and unlike other glues, wouldn’t bond at all without at least some. Repairable with itself and epoxy. Glue line as in liquid poly.

    Urea Formaldehyde Plastic Resin Glue: The old interior furniture standard, and in older marine applications that required well-blended glue lines. Still preferred by many, as it is a no-creep glue easily repaired using epoxy. Long open time, it needs tight fits and 65 degrees F or higher for an overnight cure…it doesn’t fill gaps. Best glue line among them all and moderate water resistance still make it useful for protected marine brightwork applications. A relatively brittle glue and UV sensitive, it requires protection….but its brittleness is an aid to reparability, as joints can be broken apart for repair. An inexpensive powder with a short, one-year shelf life.

    The Titebond Family of Aliphatics: Convenient. No mixing, just squeeze. Short open times, fast tack, and short clamping times. Flexible in temperature and to a lesser extent in moisture content, but the bottled glue can freeze in unheated shops. A flexible glue, it has been reported to creep under load, sometimes several years after the joint was made. The latest “Titebond III” appears to be a stronger glue than its two predecessors. Difficult glues to repair, as they won’t stick to themselves and no other glues will except cyanoacrylates, which are too brittle for general use. Epoxy and fabric aren’t bonding to aliphatic glue lines in marine strip construction, compounding repair difficulties. While not definitive, the new PL Premium appears to bond well to Titebond III residue and is worth pursuing by those repairing old white and yellow aliphatic joints.[/QUOTE]
    “Perhaps then, you will say, ‘But where can one have a boat like that built today?’ And I will tell you that there are still some honest men who can sharpen a saw, plane, or adze...men (who) live and work in out of the way places, but that is lucky, for they can acquire materials for one third of city prices. Best, some of these gentlemen’s boatshops are in places where nothing but the occasional honk of a wild goose will distract them from their work.” -- L Francis Herreshoff

  12. #87
    Just wanted to bump this very informative thread!

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