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Thread: Are Your Glue Joints Repairable?

  1. #46
    The cedar I'm testing isn't as saturated as it can get, yet.

    I'd use a liguid poly for kitchen items....Elmer's Probond, etc. Likes wet and much more repairable than Titebond.
    “Perhaps then, you will say, ‘But where can one have a boat like that built today?’ And I will tell you that there are still some honest men who can sharpen a saw, plane, or adze...men (who) live and work in out of the way places, but that is lucky, for they can acquire materials for one third of city prices. Best, some of these gentlemen’s boatshops are in places where nothing but the occasional honk of a wild goose will distract them from their work.” -- L Francis Herreshoff

  2. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smalser
    The cedar I'm testing isn't as saturated as it can get, yet.

    I'd use a liguid poly for kitchen items....Elmer's Probond, etc. Likes wet and much more repairable than Titebond.
    Bob,

    Glad to see you back here!

    Bob
    bob m

  3. #48
    Hey Bob,
    I started using Probond a few months ago and realy like it. It seems to allow a little more time for glueup then tightbond also. Have you found this to be true ?

  4. #49
    I'm pretty busy this summer, so I haven't been around.

    Another major advantage of poly is that if you catch it within 12 hours when the residue is firm but not rock-hard, you can run the boards thru the planer without tedious scraping like in other glues.

    I've switched to PL Premium Construction adhesive for all of my outdoor work that doesn't call for either epoxy or resorcinol. Incredibly strong stuff and will stick to most anything, including Titebond.



    Had a few days between concrete pours last week and whipped together a set of French Doors for the shop. 2" Western Red Cedar, routered slip tenons and PL Premium. Cedar makes an ideal door providing you add brass kick plates and bolts instead of screws for the hinges.
    “Perhaps then, you will say, ‘But where can one have a boat like that built today?’ And I will tell you that there are still some honest men who can sharpen a saw, plane, or adze...men (who) live and work in out of the way places, but that is lucky, for they can acquire materials for one third of city prices. Best, some of these gentlemen’s boatshops are in places where nothing but the occasional honk of a wild goose will distract them from their work.” -- L Francis Herreshoff

  5. #50
    Join Date
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    Glad to see you back.

    Bob, I'd been wondering about you and where you'd been for the last week or so, but guessed that you had just been too busy "House Building" and maybe "Boat Repairing" to make an appearance here. How's the House coming along? How about a few pics of your Summer's activities when you get time? We've Missed your Posts, as they are always interesting, informative and educational. I hope all your projects are going well.

    Best Regards.........Norm
    "Some Mistakes provide Too many Learning Opportunities to Make only Once".

  6. #51
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    Good to hear from you again, Bob...write when you can!
    Wood: a fickle medium....

    Did you know SMC is user supported? Please help.

  7. #52
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    Looks like I should have read this before I made the umbrella table.
    Where did I put that tape measure...

  8. #53
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    Better late than never? Gary, this was buried in the past here on SMC so I brought it to light when I was looking for some other stuff. I wonder if this thread deserves a sticky on the forum or perhaps moved somewhere where it can be found easily??
    Wood: a fickle medium....

    Did you know SMC is user supported? Please help.

  9. #54
    Just a bump for a very interesting thread.

    Thanks for posting Bob, your postings are very informative.

    Howie

  10. #55
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    Cool, i appreciate the topic. In bow making, Urac 185 is thought to be one of the best wood to wood glues. It is in the same class with Recorsinol and Weldwood. It is an old glue formula, I think it is phenol based and it seems to have filler in it and it is one of the best gap filling-low clamp pressure glues in terms of strength for Bowyery. And it is pretty cheap.

    I've made a bow with hide glue and the stuff is amazing in its own way. It shrinks some when it cures and that can be an advantage if you use it to make a bow at least. I used Knox gelatin. The stuff you buy in bottles isn't as strong as real hide glue. Knox is refined hide glue and in tests I've seen, stronger than lesser forms of this glue. It is very fun to use though somewhat messy. People use coffee cup warmers and other silly items to keep the glue warm, not high investment or high tech.

    Bob, I've seen a glue test and wish I could refer you to it. The guy glued down little blocks of wood maybe 1/2" squares and then put a wrench on them and using a scale, recorded what poundage it took to break them off. It was cool to see the glues in respect to each other, and you can then draw further conclusions from that data. Like glues that are strong but not suitable for tasks or whatever limitations they have besides strength.

    This is a good talk.

  11. #56
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    Nov 2006
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Shupe
    ...Great thread, Bob, you should write a book, or several!!
    I fully agree. This is great information for me as I get back into woodworking. Thanks to Bob and everyone else that has contributed to this thread.

  12. #57
    If you really care that someone will be able to repair your work after you are out of the picture try marking your work in a way that reveals the glues used.

    It is really quite easy to determine what glue was used by either tasting the glue or burning a tiny bit with a match or hand held lighter and smelling the smoke.
    Set the sample on tin foil and cook it off.

    Mopst all polymers smell quite differently when burned. Hide smells and tastes different than rice or albumin glues. each molecule gives off different combustion compounds when cooked off.

    The matter becomes somewhat more complex when one is trying to differentiate between very similar epoxies.

  13. #58
    Fascinating thread. Thanks for bumping it up. I'll have to study it to see if I should change any of my practices.
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  14. #59
    Great thread. I had never thought about repairability.

    It would be useful to see a guideline come together. I will probably always use PVA for shop fixtures/jigs etc because I like the convenience.

    long edge jointing, especially with biscuits: PVA? quick simple, biscuit would be moved in a repair etc...

    M&T: more likely found in quality work so repair is more likely. which to use?

    etc etc....

  15. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by josh bjork
    ...Bob, I've seen a glue test and wish I could refer you to it. The guy glued down little blocks of wood maybe 1/2" squares and then put a wrench on them and using a scale, recorded what poundage it took to break them off.
    As most glues are stronger than the wood they are gluing, he measured the sheer strength of various blocks of wood to a greater degree than he measured glue strength.



    Great thread. I had never thought about repairability.

    It would be useful to see a guideline come together. I will probably always use PVA for shop fixtures/jigs etc because I like the convenience.

    long edge joining, especially with biscuits: PVA? quick simple, biscuit would be moved in a repair etc...

    M&T: more likely found in quality work so repair is more likely. which to use?
    That's why I did the article. I got tired of getting beat up every time I mentioned that the most popular PVA glues have some major problems with them.

    PVA's are fine for edgejoining, as those joints should last forever because of identical seasonal movement across the glue joint. I've had roughsawn panel glueups in and out of the clamps and thru the planer within an hour in heated shops. The exception is if the panel is structural and must withstand a load. PVA's remain plastic and can creep under load years later, causing proud edges, regardless of any biscuits used.

    Moreover, unless it's a huge or odd-shaped layup requiring alignment aids, biscuits, dowels, or splines are a waste of effort, as the glue alone is sufficient. Bronze or galvy drifts are another matter in some structural applications in boats.

    I use and recommend UF resin glue (Weldwood or DAP...URAC is easier to use but hard to find) for furniture, hot hide glue for chairs and other round tenon applications, and polyurethane or marine epoxy for outdoor joinery. Epoxy has been found to fail gluing White Oak in marine applications and resorcinol remains a better choice for oak.

    But other factors are involved. High moisture content wood (over 15%) requires polyurethane. UF and resorcinol require 70 degrees to cure and I often have to resort to heat blankets. Open time can be critical....and PVA and poly construction adhesive have short open times that get worse in warm weather. Only epoxy fills gaps well, although URAC is better than most.

    Strength is the least concern. All of them are sufficiently strong within their application parameters.
    Last edited by Bob Smalser; 12-13-2006 at 2:49 PM.
    “Perhaps then, you will say, ‘But where can one have a boat like that built today?’ And I will tell you that there are still some honest men who can sharpen a saw, plane, or adze...men (who) live and work in out of the way places, but that is lucky, for they can acquire materials for one third of city prices. Best, some of these gentlemen’s boatshops are in places where nothing but the occasional honk of a wild goose will distract them from their work.” -- L Francis Herreshoff

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