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Thread: Are Your Glue Joints Repairable?

  1. #61
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    Bob,

    Do the plastic resin glues require a higher temp to sure or will they cure in colder temps, but take longer to do so? I live just north of Everett so winter time presents the problems of lower temps in my shop (~50F).

    How well does plastic resin glue work for woods in the dalbergia genus? I have not been real happy with any glue for segmented turning. Epoxy can leave a thicker glue line than I like (I've used System 3), I've had PU glues separate before, though the couple of failures I've had may be due to some of the wood having a MC that was >10% and was still shrinking and I've experienced the glue creek of PVA's.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Montgomery Scott
    Bob,

    Do the plastic resin glues require a higher temp to sure or will they cure in colder temps, but take longer to do so? I live just north of Everett so winter time presents the problems of lower temps in my shop (~50F).

    How well does plastic resin glue work for woods in the dalbergia genus? I have not been real happy with any glue for segmented turning. Epoxy can leave a thicker glue line than I like (I've used System 3), I've had PU glues separate before, though the couple of failures I've had may be due to some of the wood having a MC that was >10% and was still shrinking and I've experienced the glue creek of PVA's.
    They won't cure in cold temperatures, period. Neither will epoxy, BTW....it'll harden, but of you test it you'll find it's not as strong. 70 degrees for resin (URAC was developed to have a wider temperature range and to fill gaps), and at least 50 degrees for epoxy. Go to Goodwill and buy an old heat blanket when in doubt.

    Cocobolo and other tropicals can be hard to glue, even with resorcinol, because of oil, and it can vary from board to board. Smith Enterprises of Rot Doctor fame claims to have an epoxy formulated specifically for tropicals. But I'd prefer resin for your turnings because it has the cleanest glue line of all of them by far. I'd test it on some freshly-planed scraps, alternating whether you wipe first with acetone or not.
    “Perhaps then, you will say, ‘But where can one have a boat like that built today?’ And I will tell you that there are still some honest men who can sharpen a saw, plane, or adze...men (who) live and work in out of the way places, but that is lucky, for they can acquire materials for one third of city prices. Best, some of these gentlemen’s boatshops are in places where nothing but the occasional honk of a wild goose will distract them from their work.” -- L Francis Herreshoff

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smalser
    Cocobolo and other tropicals can be hard to glue, even with resorcinol, because of oil, and it can vary from board to board. Smith Enterprises of Rot Doctor fame claims to have an epoxy formulated specifically for tropicals.
    Hmm... I have a cocobola project in the near future. I had planned to use System 3 epoxy. I'll have to check out "Smith Enterprises line. I think I saw Rot Doctor demo'd at a home show. Thanks for the info Bob.

  4. I'm sure Bob Smalser knows 100 times more than I do about woodworking and has probably 1000 times more experience. However, my 3-decade experience using almost nothing but the original Titebond is far different from what he suggests. I have had 100% success with Titebond--no joint failures, including plenty of cross-grain and M/T, no creep, and no oozing.

    I decided to do some experiments of my own. I started by coating a few small pieces of #2 pine with a thin coat of Titebond after sanding each piece with 100-grit sandpaper to create a uniform and clean surface. After that glue had cured, I put on another coat on 1/2 the pieces. The single-coat left a rough surface because not much glue was left at the surface, and the double-coated surfaces were slick and smooth.

    Then I glued a few of the double-coated pieces to each other with no preparation. After drying, I tested them, and in all cases the wood broke before the glue joint let go. However, pine is pretty weak, so I did a more difficult test. I put a blob of Titebond on two double-coated surfaces--one sanded, and one untouched. After drying I used a chisel to see if I could cleave the blob from the underlying surface. Sure enough, I could, indicating a weak bond.

    Before giving up I tried one more thing. I put a layer of water on a double-coated surface and let it sit for a while. The Titebond on the surface turned milky in appearance. It also softened up and became somewhat tacky. I put a couple of blobs of Titebond on the softened surface and let everything dry. The chisel test showed total success. The Titebond seemed to have fused together, and the blobs would not cleave off the underlying surface. My tentative conclusion is that the original Titebond, because it is water soluble, can be repaired with itself as long as the original glue in the joint is presoftened with water.

    Then I did an experiment to test the theory that Titebond does not cure hard enough and oozes out of joints. I put a thick 2-inch long stripe of Titebond on a piece of shiny tape, and then did the same with liquid hide glue. I set them on my boiler, where it gets comfortably warm, and let them dry for 3 days. I removed them from the tape and did two tests to check their comparative hardness. I placed a sharp scribe against each glue blob in several places and balanced a 5-pound weight on the scribe. Then under high magnification, I looked to see if the scribe penetrated more deeply in the Titebond or the hide glue. It penetrated the hide glue more deeply.


    Then I did an even less scientific test. I put the Titebond piece in my vise and squeezed gently. Then I did the same with the hide piece. Jaw marks were clearly seen in the hide glue, but not in the Titebond. The Titebond was significantly harder than the hide glue. I then bent each glue piece until it broke. Both pieces broke with a clean snap, but the Titebond took much more force. In this experiment the Titebond proved, harder, more rigid, and stronger.

    Will Titebond ooze out of a joint? Something would have to be very strange for that to happen. Will it allow creep? Given that it appears to be harder and stronger than liquid hide glue, that doesn't seem very likely.

    Here's a real quick experiment that I did that you can easily do. Take two pieces of wood, spread Titebond on one, and clamp them together as if to make a permanent joint. Wait about 20 minutes and pull them apart and let them dry. Do you see any glue that could ooze? A well-clamped, tight-fitting glue joint is so thin, the glue would be largely constrained by the wood. What's to creep?
    Last edited by Freddie Murray; 06-09-2007 at 2:42 PM.

  5. #65
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    Welcome to the Creek.

    This month's FWW has an article on glue, including my favorite, "Old Brown Glue". I have only skimmed it, but it should be interesting reading.

    This is an old thread, and I don't have time right now to read it again, but as I recall, it contained good information.

    Hide glue is used to build chairs. Eventually, all chair joints will fail. When they do, you may use hide glue to repair them, as hide glue will stick to itself.
    I don't think you can say that about PVA. I have also heard of epoxy being used for chairs, but I have no experience in that area.

    As far as glue creep is concerned, while I have not experienced it, I have talked to people who have.

    I respect Bob Smalser's opinion on most things having to do with woodworking. My only regret is that he has yet to find the time to put all of his excellent information into a book.

    Again, welcome, and I look forward to your input.
    Martin, Granbury, TX
    Student of the Shaker style

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Martin Shupe View Post
    Welcome to the Creek.


    As far as glue creep is concerned, while I have not experienced it, I have talked to people who have.

    I respect Bob Smalser's opinion on most things having to do with woodworking. My only regret is that he has yet to find the time to put all of his excellent information into a book.

    Again, welcome, and I look forward to your input.
    Thanks for the welcome, Martin. I'm sure people have experienced creep in joints, but there has to be something going on in those joints that is not normal. Perhaps it's certain species of wood that are oily or something else that is unusual. Almost all my experience is with pine, red oak, rock maple, and walnut. Maybe it's some kind of contamination. I don't have the answer, but after playing with a cured bead of Titebond and seeing how hard it is, I just can't see how Titebond would ever creep under normal circumstances, let alone ooze out of a joint. You're right, Bob Smalser has probably forgotten more than most of us will know about woodworking. I hope he has a chance to add to this thread.

  7. #67
    I always thought of creep as the movement (due to stress) of two pieces of wood that are glued together. That is, if two pieces of wood are glued together and then two forces are applied to the pieces parallel to the glue joint but opposite in direction (one force to each board), the two boards will move slightly over time in relation to each other. That is, they will "slip" relative to each other.

    I know Titebond acknowledges that their glue has some creep, and they view it as a good thing to accomodate the natural seasonal movement of wood.

    However, like you, I would think that if the glue joint is very thin, the creep will be very small unless the glue slips against the wood. So my question would be "Is creep the deformation of the cured glue, or the slipage of the wood against the glue?"

    You raise some good points and have done some good experiments to try to find answers to your questions. Welcome to the board.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  8. #68
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    What about collecting Bob's posts and making a book out of them? I bet a lotta folks would buy it -- I would. Thanks for the great info. I'm changing my glue choices as a result of this thread.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Freddie Murray View Post
    ... However, my 3-decade experience using almost nothing but the original Titebond is far different from what he suggests. I have had 100% success with Titebond--no joint failures, including plenty of cross-grain and M/T, no creep, and no oozing.
    I use Titebond, too. No other glue allows me to lay up a roughcut panel and have it cure adequately to run thru the planer in an hour.

    But the only glues I've found that glue over its residue with any longevity are cyanos. But thin cyano is way too brittle for longevity, and high-cyano-content PL Premium poly construction adhesive shows more promise.

    And it certainly can creep under load, long after curing, and even the manufacturer says so...there are better choices for joints under a continuous load.

    There are a dozen good glues out there, all with significant strengths and weaknesses for any given application. I have most of them in my shop, and use them accordingly. Limiting yourself to one or two all-purpose glues is kinda like saying one solution solves all problems. It doesn't. The worst horror story in restoration work is a priceless antique chair with round tenon joints originally done in hot hide glue but later glued over several times using aliphatics. Those folks all sanded the joints too before applying more Titebond, but all they were really doing in a round tenon joint so sensitive to seasonal movement was setting themselves up for another fall.
    Last edited by Bob Smalser; 07-04-2007 at 12:24 PM.
    “Perhaps then, you will say, ‘But where can one have a boat like that built today?’ And I will tell you that there are still some honest men who can sharpen a saw, plane, or adze...men (who) live and work in out of the way places, but that is lucky, for they can acquire materials for one third of city prices. Best, some of these gentlemen’s boatshops are in places where nothing but the occasional honk of a wild goose will distract them from their work.” -- L Francis Herreshoff

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freddie Murray View Post
    ...after playing with a cured bead of Titebond and seeing how hard it is, I just can't see how Titebond would ever creep under normal circumstances...
    Hardness is not an indicator of creep resistance. Creep is a long-term reaction to continuous stress. From Titebond's site:

    "All PVA glues are prone to "creep" or slowly stretch under long term loads, and are not recommended for structural applications."


    Pete

  11. #71
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    Not to resurrect an old thread, but since I happened upon this one...

    Both FWW and Wood have recently done articles about glue and if I recall, they both chose TB III as the "best" (whatever "best" was, I forget).

    Just wondering if you, Bob, have seen the articles and can comment on them.
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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Klein View Post
    Just wondering if you, Bob, have seen the articles and can comment on them.
    No, I rarely read those magazines unless I have something in them.

    Those authors and I simply have different priorities. Bet they didn't look at repairability at all, did they? Nor did they wait two years to see if any of those joints creeped. You can't glue over any of these aliphatic residues if the glue joint breaks down the road, you often have to recut the joint. Seems like I've spent half my woodworking life cleaning up the messes of short-sighted craftsmen and boatbuilders, and I have no intention of someone 60 years from now cussing my work 'cause I wasn't thinking past my nose.

    I'm still in the process of using up the bottle of TBIII I bought....it does have some good applications. Panel layups are one of them. But only if you can take down the glue squeezeout in a planer after scraping. Other than that I don't see any difference. Gummy glue lines impossible to sand and ruining the stain, unrepairable joints, but hopefully not the disappointment of one board of the panel suddenly standing proud from its mates a few years down the road.
    Last edited by Bob Smalser; 10-05-2007 at 3:36 PM.
    “Perhaps then, you will say, ‘But where can one have a boat like that built today?’ And I will tell you that there are still some honest men who can sharpen a saw, plane, or adze...men (who) live and work in out of the way places, but that is lucky, for they can acquire materials for one third of city prices. Best, some of these gentlemen’s boatshops are in places where nothing but the occasional honk of a wild goose will distract them from their work.” -- L Francis Herreshoff

  13. #73
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    Saw this on another forum, David Marks comments on Plastic Resin glue and he mentions the FWW article...
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  14. #74
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    """""""""
    Personally, I use U/F resin glue in all indoor work, poly in most outdoor work and resorcinol and epoxy in boats.
    """""""

    Ok, major information overload here, I understand epoxies...well, maybe not understand, but I have used them a little, and I use Titebond 3 a lot and it seems to work ok, but seems there may be better glues to use.

    But....

    If someone is really bored, can they give me a few brand name of U/F resin glue, poly and resorcinol.
    Also it was stated that resorcinol needs appox 70 degree's to cure correctly?
    I live in Minn and my shop/garage rarely gets above 65 during the winter, should I not use it?

    Considering I don't work on boats, leastwise wood ones, I think I'll try epoxy for outdoors and U/F (whatever that is) for indoors??

    It would be nice to try several different types of glues, just not sure which brands to buy.
    Great posts, thanks.

    tia
    Remember our vets, they need our help, just like they helped us.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Willits View Post
    """""""""
    Personally, I use U/F resin glue in all indoor work, poly in most outdoor work and resorcinol and epoxy in boats.
    """""""

    Ok, major information overload here, I understand epoxies...well, maybe not understand, but I have used them a little, and I use Titebond 3 a lot and it seems to work ok, but seems there may be better glues to use.

    But....

    If someone is really bored, can they give me a few brand name of U/F resin glue, poly and resorcinol.
    Also it was stated that resorcinol needs appox 70 degree's to cure correctly?
    I live in Minn and my shop/garage rarely gets above 65 during the winter, should I not use it?

    Considering I don't work on boats, leastwise wood ones, I think I'll try epoxy for outdoors and U/F (whatever that is) for indoors??

    It would be nice to try several different types of glues, just not sure which brands to buy.
    Great posts, thanks.

    tia

    Al, the article I posted a link to covers some of your questions. Take a read.

    He mentions several brand names for plastic resin and where to purchase.

    As for temps, David Marks says if your shop is too cold, you can cover your glue-up with plastic and put a ceramic heater in there while it cures. This way you don't have to heat your whole shop. Granted, I haven't done this yet, so no idea of success.
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