Engraved Guns - Spoke with Attorney

[Mark Smith61]

Gary Hair ATF would come knocking for what? And you just said the states can be more restrictive but when I told you it's California law that restricts taking possession of the firearm you make the comment about ATF? What am I missing here? If you are properly licensed FFL or Gunsmith then you can take possession of guns and engrave them. In California, if you don't have an FFL, you can't (in most cases) take guns from others without going through somebody who is an FFL.

[Kev Williams]

Bump!!

--It's ironic that this thread ended with "ATF would come knocking for what?"

I can now answer that question: For Any Reason They Want.

Yesterday afternoon I answered the door like I do a dozen times day, only this time I was greeted by an AFT agent and his badge. Time to have a chat he says.

Now, reading backwards you'll find that this topic can get controversial. Also note my post on the first page, #11, where I brought up my conversation with Nathan at our local ATF office. And as it says, and as I told (I'll call him) Agent J, Nathan gave me his blessing to engrave guns as long as it stays on 'an occasional basis' and no one leaves any logged weapons here. There's a reason for that, which I'll get to shortly. But Agent J says different. He explains that I CANNOT engrave receivers without a gunsmithing license, period. BUT (remember these details, pop quiz at the end ) - it's perfectly fine for me to engrave barrels or slides. Because, he says, the ATF considers receivers- AR lowers, Remington 700's, etc- to be "the weapon", because they handle the ammo. Fancy that, since the last place to get the ammo is the barrel, which you can fire a bullet from with nothing more than a phillips screwdriver, yet it's nearly impossible to fire a bullet from a receiver. All they are is chunks of metal until they're attached to other parts. But I digress...

Now since I'm a stickler for details, and because frankly, if 2 people working for the same govt agency in the same building give me totally different reads on the rules which leads me to believe neither of them know what they're talking about-- I'm not afraid to search out actual laws, which I did.

Now, the first thing you get if you google 'do I have to be licensed if I engrave guns', is:

Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11) and (21); 27 CFR 478.11]

Now, notice the laws references- Title 18 United States Code sections 921(a) 11 and 21... Section 921 explains the defintions of terms used when dealing with firearms, explosives, etc... Once you get past chapter 9, it starts regarding what we're talking about. We're interested in chapter 11:

(10) The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.
(11) The term “dealer” means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, (B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or (C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term “licensed dealer” means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.
(12) The term “pawnbroker” means any person whose business or occupation includes the taking or receiving, by way of pledge or pawn, of any firearm as security for the payment or repayment of money.
(13) The term “collector” means any person who acquires, holds, or disposes of firearms as curios or relics, as the Attorney General shall by regulation define, and the term “licensed collector” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

"engravers" are considered "repairers", this is our 'category'. NOW- notice the first word in the answer to the 'do engravers need a license'-- big fat YES. But-- pay special attention to "within the definition of a dealer", because this is important, and addressed in chapter 21! And subchapter (D) applies to US, which I'll highlight, AND, I'll REALLY highlight the really important part:"

(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—
(A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;
(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;
(E) as applied to an importer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms imported; and
(F) as applied to an importer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition imported.

Get that? The term of "dealer" SHALL NOT APPLY to those who "occasionally" repair (read: ENGRAVE!)... Now, do you suppose THIS is why Nathan gave me his approval? Fact is, gun engraving accounts for probably 3% of my income. That's pretty occasional...

So why does Agent J insist I must be licensed? Hey, I haven't a clue.

But from what found in my research, I DO know this much: Anything an ATF agent tells you is based SOLEY on HIS/HER opinion of the law. NOT the LAW, just their opinion of it! Know why I know that? I actually read the laws! And it seems that BOTH Nathan AND Agent J are more than likely wrong. Know who's been right in all this discussion?

Several actually, but it appears to me Gary has been right on the money. Guess he has a good teacher, seems his ATF agent knows his stuff. He must be one of the few agents who actually read this Department of Justice/ATF ruling: https://www.atf.gov/file/55461/download

--It's a PDF copy of the actual ruling. Less than 3 pages and it explains who does and doesn't need certain licenses. It also explains exactly what the DOJ considers a firearm:

A "firearm" is defined by 18 USC 921(a)(3) to include any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, and the frame or receiver of any such weapon.

-- notice there's no distinction between different parts of the 'firearm', and that 'frame' and 'receiver' is INCLUDED, not singled out. Which I take to mean 'firearm' to include the whole gun and all parts thereof. I'm pretty sure most judges would too...

Finally, the last paragraph in the heading and of the ruling reads:

Held further, any person who is engaged in the business of camouflaging or engraving firearms as described in this ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, under the gun control act.

--pretty cut & dried there...

Pop quiz!
According to the ruling:
-- do I need a license to engrave a gun?
-- what parts of a gun are not a gun?
-- does that mean barrels and slides are okay to engrave without a license?
-- does this ruling supersede the 'occasional' reference?
-- Shouldn't ATF agents know all this??

Answers: yes, zero, NO, pretty sure and hell yes...
And FWIW, I think a lot of these laws are nonsense. But I also think the minute a judge reads this ruling, it's a done deal regardless of what I think.

Since I'm not about to put up with nonsense of getting licensed and all that that will entail, seems I'm about to have a few unhappy customers...

Let the controversy begin anew! ( or not! )

[Dave Sheldrake]

I engrave sealing rings for nuclear projects, all the time they are with me I have a "client" who stands around saying nothing and doing nothing with them in his line of sight until they are finished. They literally look like small piston rings and are totally worthless outside of the things they go inside of.

Sometimes even random bits of metal that are harmless are highly restricted

[Jacob John]

Bump!!

--It's ironic that this thread ended with "ATF would come knocking for what?"

I can now answer that question: For Any Reason They Want.

Yesterday afternoon I answered the door like I do a dozen times day, only this time I was greeted by an AFT agent and his badge. Time to have a chat he says.

Now, reading backwards you'll find that this topic can get controversial. Also note my post on the first page, #11, where I brought up my conversation with Nathan at our local ATF office. And as it says, and as I told (I'll call him) Agent J, Nathan gave me his blessing to engrave guns as long as it stays on 'an occasional basis' and no one leaves any logged weapons here. There's a reason for that, which I'll get to shortly. But Agent J says different. He explains that I CANNOT engrave receivers without a gunsmithing license, period. BUT (remember these details, pop quiz at the end ) - it's perfectly fine for me to engrave barrels or slides. Because, he says, the ATF considers receivers- AR lowers, Remington 700's, etc- to be "the weapon", because they handle the ammo. Fancy that, since the last place to get the ammo is the barrel, which you can fire a bullet from with nothing more than a phillips screwdriver, yet it's nearly impossible to fire a bullet from a receiver. All they are is chunks of metal until they're attached to other parts. But I digress...

Now since I'm a stickler for details, and because frankly, if 2 people working for the same govt agency in the same building give me totally different reads on the rules which leads me to believe neither of them know what they're talking about-- I'm not afraid to search out actual laws, which I did.

Now, the first thing you get if you google 'do I have to be licensed if I engrave guns', is:

Now, notice the laws references- Title 18 United States Code sections 921(a) 11 and 21... Section 921 explains the defintions of terms used when dealing with firearms, explosives, etc... Once you get past chapter 9, it starts regarding what we're talking about. We're interested in chapter 11:

"engravers" are considered "repairers", this is our 'category'. NOW- notice the first word in the answer to the 'do engravers need a license'-- big fat YES. But-- pay special attention to "within the definition of a dealer", because this is important, and addressed in chapter 21! And subchapter (D) applies to US, which I'll highlight, AND, I'll REALLY highlight the really important part:"

Get that? The term of "dealer" SHALL NOT APPLY to those who "occasionally" repair (read: ENGRAVE!)... Now, do you suppose THIS is why Nathan gave me his approval? Fact is, gun engraving accounts for probably 3% of my income. That's pretty occasional...

So why does Agent J insist I must be licensed? Hey, I haven't a clue.

But from what found in my research, I DO know this much: Anything an ATF agent tells you is based SOLEY on HIS/HER opinion of the law. NOT the LAW, just their opinion of it! Know why I know that? I actually read the laws! And it seems that BOTH Nathan AND Agent J are more than likely wrong. Know who's been right in all this discussion?

Several actually, but it appears to me Gary has been right on the money. Guess he has a good teacher, seems his ATF agent knows his stuff. He must be one of the few agents who actually read this Department of Justice/ATF ruling: https://www.atf.gov/file/55461/download

--It's a PDF copy of the actual ruling. Less than 3 pages and it explains who does and doesn't need certain licenses. It also explains exactly what the DOJ considers a firearm:
-- notice there's no distinction between different parts of the 'firearm', and that 'frame' and 'receiver' is INCLUDED, not singled out. Which I take to mean 'firearm' to include the whole gun and all parts thereof. I'm pretty sure most judges would too...

Finally, the last paragraph in the heading and of the ruling reads:

--pretty cut & dried there...

Pop quiz!
According to the ruling:
-- do I need a license to engrave a gun?
-- what parts of a gun are not a gun?
-- does that mean barrels and slides are okay to engrave without a license?
-- does this ruling supersede the 'occasional' reference?
-- Shouldn't ATF agents know all this??

Answers: yes, zero, NO, pretty sure and hell yes...
And FWIW, I think a lot of these laws are nonsense. But I also think the minute a judge reads this ruling, it's a done deal regardless of what I think.

Since I'm not about to put up with nonsense of getting licensed and all that that will entail, seems I'm about to have a few unhappy customers...

Let the controversy begin anew! ( or not! )

Last two posts of this thread...

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...e-today!/page4

[Bill George]

I guess I have always understood that engraving for others requires a FFL and also because receivers or any part with the serial number is considered a weapon and it has to be recorded in your "bound book" and then when it leaves be returned to its owner with proper paperwork and recording in your bound book.

[Scott Shepherd]

Kev, we should talk offline.

We were told by the ATF, same as you, that if it wasn't a "significant" part of our business, it would probably be okay, but they couldn't legally say it was okay. We applied for a FFL anyway, the interview came and we were read the riot act, told to stop engraving immediately. VERY VERY stupid points made. We were told that engraving on a gun, under the law, was considering "Manufacturing" and it we could not do it without a FFL and the top tier one at that, which classified you as a Manufacturer. He said that if you are a Manufacturer, then it is assumed that you have all the tools/machines to make your own weapons from scratch. That means if you are a Manufacturer, then you are assumed to have the equipment to put serial numbers, etc, on your products. If you didn't, then you had to submit a variance request to have the items engraved somewhere else. That had to be done for each weapon and took 2-3 weeks to submit and get approved. Stick with me now, this is where it gets interesting.

I said "Well, YOU gave them the Stamp (Form 1)", you've already done the background check. If you've given then the Stamp, then how do you think they were going to get the gun engraved? Do you think every person that submits a Form 1 has an engraving machine? Explain to me, how you envision them getting it engraved. You just said that we can't do it, and you said that YOU gave them the approval, and part of that approval process is for it to be engraved. Tell me who's supposed to be engraving it and how.

He backtracked on what he said and told that technically they weren't a manufacturer, but they were considered a manufacturer since they had the Form 1 approved. Huh????

At that time, we were not holding anyone's weapons. People made appointments and they came, sat here while we engraved it, and then left. YOU NEED NOTHING TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS. PERIOD. However, he told us we needed to stop immediately. We repeatedly explained it to him and he repeatedly didn't hear a word we said.

He called back 2 days later and said he talked to his boss and we were good to go, didn't need a FFL to do what we were doing. You are kidding me, right? Read the riot act on one day, two days later, told "my bad, it's all good"????

We applied for the FFL and got it, so now we can do business and not worry about the hassle. We had a surprise visit from the ATF about 2 weeks ago. Showed up and stayed for 3-4 hours. How? I don't know. We had zero weapons on site and our log books were spot on.

We work with a number of other FFL holders and hear their stories too. We all share the same stories, getting different answers, depending on who you ask. One auditor takes 30 minutes, one takes 4 hours. Just depends on who you get and who you ask.

[Tim Bateson]

Love these stories. Some think the government "should" know what they are doing. lol Have you tried reading their regs without a lawyer, good luck. I have a Dealers FFL to engrave Trust info & a Manufacturer FFL to engrave & resell guns.

More government confusion. ATF considers engraving and reselling guns to be a Manufacturer. The State Dept will automatically then charge you something like $2k/yr as a Manufacturer/Importer. However, a simple form will wave this because engraving is NOT considered Manufacturing by the State Dept.

So one Department says you are a Manufacturer & the other says you are not. lol The important take away is the one that costs the most does not.

[Gary Hair]

I guess I have always understood that engraving for others requires a FFL and also because receivers or any part with the serial number is considered a weapon and it has to be recorded in your "bound book" and then when it leaves be returned to its owner with proper paperwork and recording in your bound book.

The only time you need to log it into your bound book is if you keep it overnight or after business hours. In the 3 years I've had my FFL, I have 3 entries in my book and they are all mine! I do firearm engraving on Tuesday and Thursday, in by 9am, out by 2pm - no exceptions! The other caveat is that whoever drops it off must be the one who picks it up, otherwise it's a transfer and you have to run a background check on the person picking it up.
The rules for me are extremely simple and easy to follow, and the paperwork is pretty much nonexistent because of the guidelines I put in place for my customers. I pay my fee every 2 years and if the ATF ever show up to inspect my business, it will likely be the fastest inspection they have ever done!

[Dave Sheldrake]

Our laws for engraving are a lot easier

If the owner stays within line of sight of the weapon thereby no relinquishing personal posession, no licensing

Other than that, Sec 1, Sec2,Sec5 or Sec7 licensing is required

Anything other than engraving RFD required

Sec 1 = firearm
Sec 2 = shotgun
Sec 5 = Prohibited weapon (rocket launchers etc)
Sec 7 = antique firearm of special interest

[Brian Leavitt]

Interesting read, this thread. We sometimes engrave guns for Police officers and Federal officers from various agencies, including ATF agents. We definitely do not have an FFL and no one has ever asked if we do. We only engrave a gun if the customer brings it in and waits here for it to be done. Never even occurred to me that it could be an issue.

[Scott Shepherd]

Interesting read, this thread. We sometimes engrave guns for Police officers and Federal officers from various agencies, including ATF agents. We definitely do not have an FFL and no one has ever asked if we do. We only engrave a gun if the customer brings it in and waits here for it to be done. Never even occurred to me that it could be an issue.

And it should be. That's the same thing we do, but we went the extra step and got the FFL.

The agent told us that engraving made you a manufacturer. Then when I asked him how they expected Form 1 holders to get their engraving done, since part of the Form 1 states that they MUST have it engraved. I said "According to your logic, then everyone you give the stamp to needs to own their own engraving machine". He said "Well.....uhhh.....we consider them manufacturers but technically they aren't manufacturers". I said "So, YOUR requirement is that it is engraved. YOU ran the background check, and YOU approved them. YOU gave them the stamp for something and you know that they can't engrave it. How do you expect them to comply with it if they can't bring it to me and have it engraved? He couldn't answer that. Then he told me that since we engraved the Trust info to comply with what they gave them the Stamp for, then we were a manufacturer.

Then, when he called back 2 days later, he told me we weren't a manufacturer and putting the Trust info on there didn't fall under manufacturing, it fell under decorative, and we didn't need it.

We deal with all types of Law Enforcement people as well. Local, State, Federal. Almost all of those guys tell the same types of stories about the ATF. They say that it all depends on who you talk to on which day, because the answers constantly change. That's not reassuring to hear from other LEO's.

[Bruce Clumpner]

I went through the preliminary process of applying for an FFL many years ago. What kept me from completing the process is that I work from home, and part of the record keeping requirements meant that the ATF would have access to my place of business (my house) any time of the day or night to inspect my records. Not that I'm anti-government or anything, but I just didn't want someone poking in whenever they felt like it. Had I had a retail location, it would have been different.

[Kev Williams]

I'd like to address some responses but time is short right now, BUT, in speaking with one of my customers, and doing a little more research on what he told me, this came up (touching on what Steve mentioned)

A gunsmithing licensed does NOT allow you to mark frames or receivers of firearms with S/N, caliber or other pertinent info, that are intended to be sold. ONLY manufacturers can mark such weapons, AND this marking must be done on their own premises. Exception: Licensed mfr's CAN outsource work otherwise not allowed by getting permission and a variance issued by the ATF.

And speaking of premises, THAT is what is actually licensed by the ATF, not "you". Therefore any actual manufacturing, which includes mandatory ID engravings or stampings, cannot be done off-site, only 'modifications' can... 'Decorative' engraving or Cerakoting etc. can be farmed out to anyone with a gunsmithing license.

A gunsmithing license DOES allow you to mark frames etc of PERSONAL firearms, intended to be used by the owner/maker NOT intended to be sold.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/at...ter-7/download << link to some more reading,
below is a excerpt:

(1) John Doe has a personal firearm and takes it to a gunsmith, a licensed dealer, for modification.
The work performed in this instance is the legitimate work of a gunsmith and may be performed pursuant
to the gunsmith’s dealer’s license. The gunsmith need not be licensed as a manufacturer,
or hold a special tax stamp in the case of an NFA firearm, to perform the work.

(2) Company A is a licensed manufacturer, but contracts with other licensees to perform
finishing work on NFA firearms it manufactures. One such contractor is a gunsmith, a licensed
dealer. After receiving the finished firearms, Company A offers the firearms for sale. In this
instance, the gunsmith, as well as Company A, is engaged in business as an NFA firearms
manufacturer and needs a manufacturer’s license and special tax stamp to do so.

Finally, I was also told by my customer he knows Agent J all too well (leave it at that), and that Nathan still works there, gave me his direct phone number to contact him for straight answers and to get in writing what I can and can't do to without a license...

[Scott Shepherd]

Finally, I was also told by my customer he knows Agent J all too well (leave it at that), and that Nathan still works there, gave me his direct phone number to contact him for straight answers and to get in writing what I can and can't do to without a license...

Sounds familiar.

[Tim Bateson]

...A gunsmithing licensed does NOT allow you to mark frames or receivers of firearms with S/N, caliber or other pertinent info, that are intended to be sold. ONLY manufacturers can mark such weapons, AND this marking must be done on their own premises. Exception: Licensed mfr's CAN outsource work otherwise not allowed by getting permission and a variance issued by the ATF...

Not sure about this one. Not saying you are wrong either. My 01 FFL is what I applied for and at my interview the ATF agent was good with that for engraving Trust info into AR Receivers. He classified that work as gunsmithing. When I mentioned to him I also planned to engrave & resell firearms, he explained I needed the the 07 FFL for that work, which he then changed the paperwork & approved.

Note: An 07 is inclusive of an 01... and for some odd reason cheaper than an 01.

I do nothing with customers there, don't even let them into the shop any more. I schedule all of my work for 1-7 days from drop off date. Depending how busy I am.