Engraved Guns - Spoke with Attorney

[Clark Pace]

Hello,

So I spoke with a City Attorney about engraved guns. He had another shop doing his engraves. I wonder if they were licensed? I wonder if there is enough money to be made to go through the hassle of getting licensed, or if they were just taking the chance on not getting caught? Kind of scary to do that though.

[William Adams]

Won't afford you any protection if the BATF decides to make an issue of it if it's a U.S. city --- you need a gunsmith license:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/gunsmiths.html

Q: Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms?

Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer.

[27 CFR 478.11]

[Tim Bateson]

I deleted my own comment...

[Gary Hair]

So I spoke with a City Attorney about engraved guns.

Unless he is an attorney that you have hired to defend you when the ATF comes callin, I would consider his advice as valuable as what you paid for it... The link in the other post says it all and is exactly what the ATF will say. It makes no difference if you have it for 1 minute or a month, you need an FFL-01 to do engraving legally. Time you have the firearm only dictates whether you have to log it into your books or not - FFL books that is.

[Kev Williams]

heavy sigh...

[Clark Pace]

Anyone here actually gone through process of becoming a gun smith?

[David Somers]

Not me Clark. But I have a friend who has if you want me to ask him something.

Dave

[Gary Hair]

Anyone here actually gone through process of becoming a gun smith?

Yep, that's when I learned how most engravers are misinformed about what's legal and what's not about engraving firearms. Hint - it's a good bet that 99% of people engraving firearms are doing it illegally...

[Robert Walters]

I think local zoning would probably be the big thing.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/how-to/become-an-ffl.html

[Dave Sheldrake]

Federal Prison can do a great job of focussing the mind if you get it wrong that's for sure.

cheers

Dave

[Kev Williams]

Ok, here's a suggestion, do what I just did: Call your local ATF agent--

I just spoke to Nathan at the SLC ATF field office. Here's a shortened transcript:

==========================================
Me: I own an engraving shop, and I have some legal questions about engraving on guns.

Nathan: Ok, such as?

Me: Such as, is it okay for me to engrave guns for the local gun dealers, like registered firearms, while the dealer rep watches while I'm engraving?

Nathan: Yes. As long as it's just an occasional thing, and not your main course of business. If it is, then it's advisable to get a permit.

Me: Well, I engrave a few guns a week.

Nathan: That's fine. But if you were to be taking in 50 to 100 guns a week, something along those lines, then it would be a good idea to get licensed.

Me: Ok, then how about personal guns, dropped off for personalization purposes, such as guns for retirement gifts or graduation gifts?

Nathan: Same thing, as long as you're only engraving guns on an occasional basis, you're fine.

Me: So, it's perfectly legal for me to continue to engrave guns as I have been?

Nathan: Yes.
====================================

Google ATF [your city], and call them.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

We are an FFL 01...well worth the piece of mind.

[Robert Walters]

Nathan: Same thing, as long as you're only engraving guns on an occasional basis, you're fine.

Me: So, it's perfectly legal for me to continue to engrave guns as I have been?

Nathan: Yes.

My advice...
Get it in writing.


There was a thing going around regarding the legality of a .22lr flare gun insert:
http://kennesawcannon.com/subcaliberinsert.php

So, they wrote the ATF, and this is the letter they received back:
http://kennesawcannon.com/images1/batf.pdf

Note the date stamp and some sort of file numbers on ATF Stationary.

CYA =)

[Bert Kemp]

From the ATF Website

A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer. [27 CFR 478.11] ...(11) The term “dealer” means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail,
(B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or
(C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term “licensed dealer” means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

So I read it as if your not a dealer you can engrave without an FFL

[Tim Bateson]

Thank you Kev! I've had that same conversation. To-date, I have opted not to work with dealers as I don't like to be watched while I work. Now, they sell the guns & send the new gun owner my way.

For those who this rubs the wrong way.

In addition.... I am getting my CCW & applying for the FFL-01 this summer at the same time as the process is very much the same & I have to hit the sheriff's office for both. The ONLY reason for both is per customer agreement for a large contract I have for later this year & next. The contract pays for my CCW, FFL-01 as well as a gun safe. I'm also pushing for a Fiber laser too, but they haven't bit on that yet.