Engraved Guns - Spoke with Attorney

[Bill George]

The only time you need to log it into your bound book is if you keep it overnight or after business hours. In the 3 years I've had my FFL, I have 3 entries in my book and they are all mine! I do firearm engraving on Tuesday and Thursday, in by 9am, out by 2pm - no exceptions! The other caveat is that whoever drops it off must be the one who picks it up, otherwise it's a transfer and you have to run a background check on the person picking it up.
The rules for me are extremely simple and easy to follow, and the paperwork is pretty much nonexistent because of the guidelines I put in place for my customers. I pay my fee every 2 years and if the ATF ever show up to inspect my business, it will likely be the fastest inspection they have ever done!

So if its not entered in the "Book" how would the Inspector know if its been overnight, two hours or two weeks? I had an FFL a few years ago and turned it back in as I did not need.

[Gary Hair]

So if its not entered in the "Book" how would the Inspector know if its been overnight, two hours or two weeks? I had an FFL a few years ago and turned it back in as I did not need.

If the agent was unsure about how long you had a firearm in your shop, they could just wait until you closed and you better have anything that remains there properly logged. Whether it's been there 1 minute past closing time or 10 years, is immaterial and it needs to be entered.

[John Kleiber]

Post ended up in the wrong place....

[John Kleiber]

[/COLOR]Wrong, wrong, wrong...


I'd like you to show me in the regs where that is specified. I'm a betting man and I'll bet you can't...



Same thing - you are not likely to find that.



Mostly correct - mostly... you only need to log firearms that are kept after you close for business, if you keep them only during business hours then there is no requirement to log them. The owner doesn't need to be present, that makes no difference at all.

Gary,

Mark Smith61 may be referring in part to CA Gun Laws and Administrative guidelines mandated by the California Justice Department which are not reflective of the majority of States.

-John

[Scott Shepherd]

Went to a gun show today and there was a booth for the ATF with 3 agents in it. I had a conversation with the senior agent and he said it's very simple. If you take possession of it, then you need an FFL. If you do not take possession (i.e. the customer stays and waits for it to be completed), then you do not need an FFL. He said there is nothing more to it. Take possession and you need the FFL, period, end of story, according to him. We spoke for about 15 minutes, and he was very knowledgeable about engraving Trust information and all that was required. I asked him about the phase "significant part of your business" and he said "You either take possession or you don't, it's that simple".

Take that for what it's worth (free information, 3rd hand, on the internet ).

[Doug Fisher]

Scott - When you had your conversation did you differentiate between engraving fully assembled guns vs. just specific parts of a gun?. Thanks.

[Scott Shepherd]

Scott - When you had your conversation did you differentiate between engraving fully assembled guns vs. just specific parts of a gun?. Thanks.

Yes, and their stance is that what classifies as a weapon is clearly defined. If you take possession of what is considered the weapon, then you need a FFL. Anything else and they couldn't care less.

[Gary Hair]

Scott - When you had your conversation did you differentiate between engraving fully assembled guns vs. just specific parts of a gun?. Thanks.

As long as you don't have the serial numbered part in your possession the BATF couldn't care less about it. That's the only part that is regulated and considered the "firearm"

[Tim Bateson]

As long as you don't have the serial numbered part in your possession the BATF couldn't care less about it. That's the only part that is regulated and considered the "firearm"

One gotcha on that one... An 80% lower. For those who don't do this daily, an 80% lower can be mostly a block of aluminum shaped with only minimum drilling completed. Even though it's not spelled out in the code, my ATF agent told me outright it is still considered a weapon and thus needs to be tracked. If no serial number, I (as an FFL holder) have to insure it has one before leaving my shop. So if you have no FFL, an 80% lower even without a serial number is not allowed. Your mileage with another ATF agent may very.

[Bill George]

I used to hang out on AR15 dot COM those guys deal with the ATF all the time. Billet aliminum blocks pre-machined to 80 and even 90% are not considered weapons. They have posted official letters online received from BATF in DC.

[John Lifer]

The point is, with all gun laws, it all depends on what day of the week it is, and what agent you are talking with.....

[Tim Bateson]

I used to hang out on AR15 dot COM those guys deal with the ATF all the time. Billet aluminum blocks pre-machined to 80 and even 90% are not considered weapons. They have posted official letters online received from BATF in DC.

Although I agree with you... I'm not going to argue with the ATF agent that inspects my books either.

[Bill George]

Although I agree with you... I'm not going to argue with the ATF agent that inspects my books either.

Write a letter to BATF in DC or wherever and get it in writing. Your agent seems to be just winging it.

While a little reading on AR15 dot com says this, the Bureau does not recognize 80 or 90% billet receivers as such, but without a serial number they are not considered a receiver. Certain venders will furnish a copy of letter from the BATF stating their particular item is not a receiver and legal to ship and sell. In your case I would get something in writing before proceeding.

[Gary Hair]

One gotcha on that one... An 80% lower. For those who don't do this daily, an 80% lower can be mostly a block of aluminum shaped with only minimum drilling completed. Even though it's not spelled out in the code, my ATF agent told me outright it is still considered a weapon and thus needs to be tracked. If no serial number, I (as an FFL holder) have to insure it has one before leaving my shop. So if you have no FFL, an 80% lower even without a serial number is not allowed. Your mileage with another ATF agent may very.

Technically, unless you are selling or transferring it, a home-built firearm doesn't need to have a serial number.

Here is a link to a google search that has plenty of info about this topic.

https://www.google.com/search?q=does...obile&ie=UTF-8

Here is one link with actualy correspondence from a BATF agent - I give this a lot of credibility:
http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2...emade-firearm/

[Tim Bateson]

I don't see it as any big deal. I do a lot of 80%-90% receivers, and none of my customers have had any problem with adding a serial number. I have never forced it, I just suggest they do for purposes such as theft. Serial numbers don't have to be complicated. For example one guy used his initials as manufacture and last initial + 1 for serial number (FBT T1). Most of these come in for the SAFE/FIRE/HELL + Caliber type engravings, I then throw in Manufacturer/Serial Number info at no additional cost. I think for most, it's a matter of pride to have their name engraved on it as Manufacturer.