Engraved Guns - Spoke with Attorney

[Scott Shepherd]

I don't think it's particularly good advice to take advice from a ATF agent or a police officer. I've called the Department of Justice a number of times in relation to ADA compliant signs. I've gotten different answers from every person I've spoken to. So if we get popped on a violation for a building we did signs for, do you really think the defense of "James from your office told me it was okay" is going to get far? Without it in writing, all of this is hearsay from a court standpoint. When you get nailed and you end up in court, and you drag the agent into the court room, do you think he's going to say "Yes, I told him he didn't need a permit?". I seriously doubt that.

It's so little involved, why would you want to risk it?

[Chris DeGerolamo]

Thank you Kev! I've had that same conversation. To-date, I have opted not to work with dealers as I don't like to be watched while I work. Now, they sell the guns & send the new gun owner my way.

For those who this rubs the wrong way.

In addition.... I am getting my CCW & applying for the FFL-01 this summer at the same time as the process is very much the same & I have to hit the sheriff's office for both. The ONLY reason for both is per customer agreement for a large contract I have for later this year & next. The contract pays for my CCW, FFL-01 as well as a gun safe. I'm also pushing for a Fiber laser too, but they haven't bit on that yet.

Tim, I cannot stress enough that you need to stop engraving firearms. Please, don't let yourself lose so much money - I'll take that bullet for you. Just send these folks my way.

[Dave Sheldrake]

I'd probably look at written confirmation from a DA or ADA to be honest, enforcement officers (Police,ATF,DEA etc) do just that, enforce, DA's etc decide if you are going to court and what you will be charged with.

Over here they banned a class of air weapon some years ago, when I turned up at the local police station to turn in some on the day of the ban the duty inspector said "Why? they are legal I have some of my own" he was less than happy when I pointed out as of midnight that night each one was worth 5 years inside as they hadn't been told! He called the Home Office (Government dept responsible) who confirmed I was right and the weapons were due for destruction.

I have no idea what the US laws on guns are...that said, I'd want something in writing I could give to a judge if I got lifted.

cheers

Dave

[Gary Hair]

I'd probably look at written confirmation from a DA or ADA to be honest

I get your point but the DA or ADA are local/city/county/state and the ATF is federal, you'll be charged with a federal crime for weapons violations. I'd want something in writing from an agent from the ATF.

[Walt Langhans]

Federal Prison can do a great job of focussing the mind if you get it wrong that's for sure.

cheers

Dave

WOW, LMAO, seriously! Love your wit Dave!

[Curt Harms]

I get your point but the DA or ADA are local/city/county/state and the ATF is federal, you'll be charged with a federal crime for weapons violations. I'd want something in writing from an agent from the ATF.

Good advice but in a few cases state law can be more draconian than federal. A couple northeastern states come to mind.

[Mark Smith61]

I'm a former cop myself who worked the last half of my career in a prosecutors office. I did some legal research on this issue a while ago and I didn't see anything about being exempt if you only do it "occasionally." In the research I did, I determined the only way to legally engrave guns without a gunsmith license or other FFL (as best I can tell) is that whomever you are doing the engraving for remains present the entire time you have the firearm. That way they are considered to always be in constructive possession of the gun.

The main reason for the licensing requirements if you are going to take the guns into your possession are many fold. Obviously they want to make sure you are allowed yourself to possess firearms. And then they are going to want to make sure your shop meets all the required safety standards if you are going to have guns there. For example, you will have to get a gun safe that meets their standards, it has to be installed and bolted to the floor. They then have requirements for alarms and monitoring of the alarm and you have to keep logs of when guns come in and out and all kinds of other regulations.

[Gary Hair]

whomever you are doing the engraving for remains present the entire time you have the firearm

Wrong, wrong, wrong...

And then they are going to want to make sure your shop meets all the required safety standards if you are going to have guns there. For example, you will have to get a gun safe that meets their standards, it has to be installed and bolted to the floor.

I'd like you to show me in the regs where that is specified. I'm a betting man and I'll bet you can't...

They then have requirements for alarms and monitoring of the alarm

Same thing - you are not likely to find that.

and you have to keep logs of when guns come in and out and all kinds of other regulations.

Mostly correct - mostly... you only need to log firearms that are kept after you close for business, if you keep them only during business hours then there is no requirement to log them. The owner doesn't need to be present, that makes no difference at all.

[Bruce Clumpner]

For those considering applying for an FFL for your engraving business and you work out of the house. Be aware, one of the requirements is that your place of business needs to be accessible for inspection by any regulatory agency without notice.. This was one of the issues that caused me to re-think the application.. I didn't need folks arriving unannounced at any time of the day or night and wanting a tour of the house. Just a warning...

[Gary Hair]

For those considering applying for an FFL for your engraving business and you work out of the house. Be aware, one of the requirements is that your place of business needs to be accessible for inspection by any regulatory agency without notice.. This was one of the issues that caused me to re-think the application.. I didn't need folks arriving unannounced at any time of the day or night and wanting a tour of the house. Just a warning...

That was one of the things the agent told me when he came to my place for the interview. However, he followed it up with the fact that there are 6 agents in Oregon to cover thousands of FFL holders and that it was unlikely that they would ever visit me unless they had to trace a firearm. I asked him about me being a one-man shop and that I wouldn't necessarily let anyone know if I were on vacation or gone fishin' or whatever, and he said that since he would have to drive 90 miles from Portland that he would never come down without letting me know and ensuring I'm here. That's probably not how it would work for everyone, but I'm not too terribly worried about them showing up. There is a place on the application for you to list your business days/hours - If you are really concerned about it you could put "Wednesday" for the day and 10:30am - 11:00am for the hours. I don't think they could come knockin' outside those hours... just a thought.

[Mark Smith61]

I have a friend who is a law enforcement officer and recently obtained an FFL to sell firearms. He is going the business from his house. He is the one that told me about the requirement for the safe and that it had to be bolted to the floor and about the monitored alarm system. According to him those were all ATF requirements.

So are you saying the ATF doesn't regulate at all how people who hold FFL's store firearms? I was in fact making the assumption that somebody who had a Gunsmith License would be required to meet the same requirements as a regular FFL holder, so I don't know if that was true or not.

[Mark Smith61]

Also I should have added that I'm in California so I included California law in my research. It's actually California law that is the most restrictive as far as can I have somebody else's gun in my possession without them being present.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

I can tell you as a current FFL holder in NC, there is no regulation/requirement for firearm storage or security [in this state] other than to have locks on the doors. I specifically recall this conversation with my then BATFE agent.

[Gary Hair]

So are you saying the ATF doesn't regulate at all how people who hold FFL's store firearms?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

I was in fact making the assumption that somebody who had a Gunsmith License would be required to meet the same requirements as a regular FFL holder, so I don't know if that was true or not.

There are several types of FFL, 01 is gunsmith as well as a dealer, there is no "Gunsmith License" or "regular FFL holder" - either you have an FFL or you don't. It is a bit ridiculous that as an engraver I need to have an FFL and I'm considered a gunsmith by the ATF, but that's what the rules are so I'm playin by their rules.

Here is a list of the different types of FFL

Type	Usage
Type 1	Title 1 dealer or gunsmith other than destructive devices. Can also deal in Title II NFA firearms with class 3 tax stamp.
Type 2	Title 1 dealer doing business as a pawnbroker.
Type 3	Licensed collector of Curio & Relic (C&R) firearms.
Type 6	Licensed manufacturer of ammunition and reloading components other than ammunition for destructive devices and armor piercing ammunition.
Type 7	Title 1 manufacturer of firearms and ammunition, who may also act as dealer; may not manufacture or deal in destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, or armor piercing ammunition. Can also manufacture & deal in Title II NFA firearms with class 2 tax stamp.
Type 8	Importer of Title 1 firearms and ammunition. Can also import Title II NFA firearms with class 1 tax stamp.
Type 9	Dealer in firearms, including destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, and armor piercing ammunition. Requires payment as an SOT Class 1 (can act as an NFA Dealer). To deal/broker any DD with an explosives content (e.g. flash-bangs) requires an additional Federal Explosives License[1] as a Dealer of High Explosives.
Type 10	Manufacturer of firearms, ammunition and ammunition components, manufacturer of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, and armor piercing ammunition; may also deal in all of the aforementioned items. Requires payment as an SOT Class 2 (can act as an NFA Dealer). To manufacture any DD with an explosives content (e.g. flash-bangs) requires an additional FEL[2] as a Type 20 Manufacturer of High Explosives.
Type 11	Importer of firearms, ammunition, destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, and armor piercing ammunition; may also deal in all the aforementioned items. Requires payment as an SOT Class 1. To import any DD with an explosives content (e.g. flash-bangs), requires an additional FEL[3] as an Importer of High Explosives.

[Gary Hair]

Also I should have added that I'm in California so I included California law in my research.

California law has nothing to do with your necessity to have and FFL, that's federal law. States can have more restrictive laws than the feds but not less. I know, marijuana is still a federal crime but not so in a few states - that is one of very few exceptions and not likely to be a precedent for changing FFL laws.

It's actually California law that is the most restrictive as far as can I have somebody else's gun in my possession without them being present.

Not when you are talking about federal regulations - but go ahead and tell that to the AFT if they ever come knocking...