Engraved Guns - Spoke with Attorney

[Kev Williams]

Steve-- did they show you any printed laws and/or rulings to back up their stance? I have printed up every law and AFT ruling pertaining to manufacturing, selling, collecting, repairing, engraving and coating firearms, and while I'll have to read thru it all again to be certain, I can't remember a single instance in any of this paperwork where "who has possession" is brought up. I also have a coalition of gun owners and gun shop owners, all of which are very knowledgeable about the laws, have unanimously agreed the C&D order I was issued is a crock. One of these gentleman, a friend who's worked on barrels and receivers for over 30 years, had an ATF problem with one of our local agents (fancy that) about a year ago, and after speaking with several different agents around the country and getting different answers from all of them, eventually got to speak with one of the directors of the ATF. Not sure who exactly, but this director, according to my friend, flatly called a lot of the info he was given "crap". In short, anything any ATF agent tells you is based solely on his/her interpretation of the laws. Which is exactly why I have a C&D from one local agent and the blessing to engrave anything but serial numbers on 'company' mfr'd guns from another agent, who work in the same building.

In my spare time (lol) I'm attempting to draft a simple letter, with help from my local gun friends. It's going to be a simple request for 'the buck stops here' clarification of the law, as pertains to licensing requirements; who needs one, who doesn't, and why. This letter and associated paperwork will be signed by dozens of local gun and gun shop owners, and will be sent to Acting ATF director Thomas E. Brandon, and Acting ATF Deputy Director Ronald B. Turk, in hopes one or both of them will respond.

[Bill George]

You might also contact the NRA for help on this matter.

[John Lifer]

Gun possession is ALWAYS at the root of the issue. Go back and read 4473 form. Most questions are trying to determine can you legally possess, (not necessarily just own) a firearm. It would be nice to get complete determination, but it is just a single director. Heard about the AR 15 pistol brace? Batfe has gone back and forth on that at least 4 times.

[Marvin Hasenak]

The people that do real engraving with gravers will tell you that you need a FFL to engrave guns. There is also no provision for "occasional" engraving. They will also tell you that your are basically altering the appearance of the weapon. That falls under the gunsmith laws, if you have no FFL, you are subjecting yourself to Federal charges.

A phone call answer will not hold up in court, get it in writing on the BATF stationary through the mail. Not an email or anything that is easy to electronically alter. Finally, opinions that are of individual agents are just their opinions, not necessarily that of the BARF agency.

I been there, seen that, and the Tshirts to prove it with the IRS. If it isn't in writing on their letterhead, it is worthless opinion.

[Jerome Stanek]

If you are engraving a 80 - 90% receiver and engrave a serial number do you need a license. Like when I was installing a handicap sign and a cop wanted to right me a ticket because I was backed into the spot. I ended up telling him it is not a handicap spot till I hang the sign and paint the pavement.

[Chris Edens]

Yes you will. If you're gonna do firearms just get the FFL.

If you are engraving a 80 - 90% receiver and engrave a serial number do you need a license. Like when I was installing a handicap sign and a cop wanted to right me a ticket because I was backed into the spot. I ended up telling him it is not a handicap spot till I hang the sign and paint the pavement.

[Kev Williams]

There's more to it than "just". Which is why I won't...

[Matt McCoy]

FFL is less expensive than a lawyer.

[Scott Shepherd]

This is just my opinion, which may or may not be correct, the second you engrave Trust info on the weapon, you are in violation of the law without the FFL. In order for someone to get the Form 1, and put it into a Trust, the Trust owns the weapon. That weapon cannot be in the possession of anyone that isn't listed on the Trust, unless it's done by transferring the weapon into someone else's possession, legally, which is done by having the FFL and logging the weapon in and out.

For example, if you have a Trust, and you are the sole person listed on the Trust, you cannot loan that gun to your friend or family member to take to the range. Unless they are listed on the Trust, they cannot take possession of it, legally.

Back to engraving, if you engrave the Trust information, and you aren't listed on the Trust, then you are in violation of the law. It's actually before you engrave it, because the Form 1 has been issued and the owner has the stamp. To me, when they get that, then it's a hot potato that has to be managed in a controlled way in order to follow the law.

That's part of my opinion on it. I'd count up the hours you are spending on trying NOT to have it, and I'd realize it's going to cost you way more to fight it than to just get the FFL. I don't understand the resistance to getting the FFL.

[Gary Hair]

unless it's done by transferring the weapon into someone else's possession, legally, which is done by having the FFL and logging the weapon in and out.

The only time you need to log in/out is if the firearm stays in your possession after business hours, otherwise you don't have to make any entries at all.

[Scott Shepherd]

The only time you need to log in/out is if the firearm stays in your possession after business hours, otherwise you don't have to make any entries at all.

I would respectfully disagree with that. The law, with the log book, isn't put there to track activity after business hours, it's there to track the steps of a controlled weapon. It it moves from place to place, that movement must be tracked and accounted for.

If the rightful owner were to log it out and transfer it into your possession and they cross reference logs, you are going to be in trouble.

We were audited about a month ago and they were pretty specific on that to us, citing the specific codes and section in the regulations about it.

[Kev Williams]

My resistance to getting an FFL is purely on principle, based on my opinion that not even the ATF knows how to interpret its own laws. To wit, and to address Marvin above who I guess thinks I'm not a real engraver, YES there IS a provision for "occasional" dealing and gunsmithing.

Here's my C&D in all it's glory...
myATFCD.jpg
Here's the closeup of the pertinent info...
myATFCD2.jpg
And here's the basic AFT online answer as to 'do you need a license'...
myATFCD3.jpg
Now note VERY CLOSELY that I've highlighted "as a business". Also note the law cited, Title 18 USC section 921 chapters 11 and 21.

So YES, if I'm IN THE BUSINESS of engraving guns, I need a license. No dispute.

Ok then, so what if, by definition of their own law, I'm NOT in the business of engraving guns? What's the obvious conclusion? How about: I DON'T need a license. And guess what, right there at the tail end of 18 USC 19 chapters 11 and 21, are the words of law conveniently missing from my C&D and of the minds of most agents, save for Nathan that I spoke to 3 years ago (see page 1 post 11 of this thread of the exact day I called and put down the jist of our conversation)--these missing words define me perfectly as NOT being in the gun engraving business. Here is the law, pertinent parts highlighted, and my additional comments in RED

(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—
(A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;
(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

Yup, funny how this part is always left out... Pretty darn clear to me: If a person only OCCASIONALLY repairs firearms, and one who repairs firearms is by definition is a GUNSMITH, which by definition includes ENGRAVER-- then THE TERM "ENGAGED IN THE BUSINESS" shall not apply. And since this law makes no mention that "occasional" gunsmithing is forbidden, then IF I need a license IF I'm defined as a gunsmith, then the opposite must be true: If I'm NOT by definition above, "a gunsmith", then I shouldn't need a license.

This is exactly how ATF agent Nathan explained this to me. And for what it's worth, the ruling passed down by the acting ATF director in 2009 that is the basis for all this "if you engrave guns you need a license period" mentality, does NOT change or supercede this law.

Maybe I'm being a blockhead, but to me and many others, the law is clear-- and being ignored. Ironically, I don't miss engraving guns at all. If I'm forced to abide by the law, I want to abide by the ACTUAL law. THAT'S my "resistance". If they want to ban all engraving without a license, then CHANGE the law to say so...

[Gary Hair]

If the rightful owner were to log it out and transfer it into your possession and they cross reference logs, you are going to be in trouble.

I'm talking about private party, since you said "log it out" I'm assuming you are talking about another FFL, otherwise, who is going to "log it out"?

[Gary Hair]

for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby

Which of these are you doing Kev? You highlighted "occasional" but left out the key part...

[Scott Shepherd]

Kev, I think the point I'd stress is that no where does it say that you can or cannot engrave with or without a FFL. The point made to me was "are you taking possession of the firearm?". If the answer is yes, then you need the FFL. If the answer is No, then you don't. Regardless if you were fixing the sights, engraving Trust information, or making any other modification. The point of the FFL is to keep track of the movement of weapons so if anything is stolen or a crime happens, then they can trace that to it's last known point.

Gary, yes, a private party doesn't log it out, but they are also the ones that hold the Stamp that allows them to have possession of it. You cannot possess a weapon that has the stamp, unless you are, 1) Listed on the Trust and have a copy of that trust on your person, or, 2) Have a FFL, and have logged it into the books.

If it's stolen from your shop, they are going to the person that brought it, he/she is going to say "I dropped it off at Gary's", and then the ATF is going to show up and want to see when it was brought to you. You'll have zero proof of it ever being in your possession and you'll have an issue at that point.