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Thread: Water stone stiction question

  1. #16
    Lots of pressure means that you are rushing the stone. Soak it, soak it long and try a nagura to prep it.

  2. #17
    You may want to try the locked arms approach and rocking the body. I think that is for maintaining a consistent bevel but i found it helpful for a sticky Shapton.

    I think the floating and sticking are from the same issue. I saw some guy use a scraper to match a surface of something really heavy to a granite plate and floated it like an air hockey puck.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Merriam View Post
    ... but this was a new Veritas Pm11 and a Woodriver v3 I was dealing with, I thought it would be a couple swipes on each stone and good to go. Little did I know my sharpening would come to a screeching halt because I literally couldn't slide the iron over the stone anymore. It's not a problem you'd ever imagine happening lol.
    From the Lee Valley site:

    All our blades are lapped on the face side to a flatness tolerance of 0.0005" or better, with an average roughness (Ra) of 5 microinches (0.000005") or better.
    My point is just that the back is already very flat and pretty smooth. I also experienced the same problems you mention when I slapped my new blades onto a fine Shapton... I never did finish because I was called off to work on something else by the wife and I never got back to it. So, it is a bit shiny, but not as much as I would like.

  4. #19
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    That's pretty much what happened to me, except I just plain got tired of lapping. I have spots on the backs that have a nice clear mirror reflection, but they are right next to areas that cast a fuzzy reflection. I'm heading in to the shop tonight to give it another try, this time with plenty of water, and I plan to leave the slurry from flattening on the stone to see what that does.

  5. #20
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    What your saying doesn't quite make sense to me. I have flattened many backs, once they are flat of a 1K stone, the other shouldn't be t-h-a-t much trouble or take that long at all IF you can move the blade on the stone... I have never used shaptons, so don't know how bad the stiction is.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew N. Masail View Post
    What your saying doesn't quite make sense to me. I have flattened many backs, once they are flat of a 1K stone, the other shouldn't be t-h-a-t much trouble or take that long at all IF you can move the blade on the stone... I have never used shaptons, so don't know how bad the stiction is.
    I did not even try this particular blade on a 1K stone because the blade in question is already so flat. In fact, I thought that I had read something from Lee Valley that said I did not really need to do that with their blade, but, if so, it would be on the sheet that they included with the blade (since I don't see it stated as such on their web site). It certainly did a decent job right out of the container. I don't think that I have seen this behavior on a courser stone. I don't even remember what the stone is at the moment (Shapton Pro 5K Wine probably)

  7. #22
    One other thing, work the last inch of the blade or so. I think steve or someone said above, when you're flattening an iron, you're working a much larger surface which limits how aggressively the particles dig into the metal you're abrading.

    Working the last inch of an iron instead of the entire back allows two things - less stiction (and preservation of flatness on the other side of the blade for use once the side you're on is out of flat) and a deeper cut from the iron. Put your fingers or thumbs on the part of the iron where you want metal to be removed. The irons do still flex enough such that if they are flat, you'll remove metal faster where your thumb or finger pressure is than anywhere else on the iron.

    In truth, you use the LV lapped irons just working the bevel and not doing anything at all to polish the back.

  8. #23
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    Yep, they include that sheet with the blade packaging, and it says even though the blade is a dull grey in color, it is precisely flat etc etc. I wasn't even going to touch the back, then I read somewhere, maybe here, that you should still hit it on your finer stones and have it match the bevel quality on the front.

    Matthew, the stiction on my 5k was like glue. I could let go of the iron and it would easily hang off the side of the stone by itself (with just 1 inch or so on, and the other 5-6 inches in the air). I didn't try it, but I bet I could have picked up the stone just by lifting up the iron. I'm going to try to soak the stone for 2-3 minutes tonight and see what that does.

  9. #24
    You *can* touch it on finer stones. Couple of worthless comments from me, but worth what they cost to get, I guess. We flatten irons for two reasons:
    1) so that we can get a stone on the wear that occurs on the side opposite of the bevel, or so that we can reach a wire edge which if large from a coarse stone, will rip up the edge upon removal if it's not thinned via honing
    2) to polish the edge because the finish level on the back isn't good enough for a cut (usually a smooth cut)

    Neither of these is an issue with the LV irons. Successive sharpenings and polishing away the wear on the non-bevel side will quickly bring the working edge to a polish, and the iron already starts flat and finely lapped.

    The reason that it's grey is because they're using silicon carbide abrasives loose (at least I'm guessing they are), and silicon carbide finishes are usually dull looking.

    Most people don't use a sharpening method now that requires any regard for the wire edge other than to see that it's formed, so you can disregard that if you're using a premium finishing stone. Stropping it off would still result in a sharper iron, but one that is only sharper for a few strokes for practical purposes. If, however, you ever sharpen an old iron and want to remove a coarse wire edge, it will drive you nuts getting to it if the edge is not flat to the stone.

  10. #25
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    Well I hit the shop tonight eager to try some new things. I started by soaking my 5k stone for about 4 minutes, then I flattened it on my diamond stone and left the slurry on it. Got out my block plane blade since it's small and took a couple test strokes. I was pleasantly surprised, it glided nicely and seemed to be cutting right away. But after about 5 strokes the stickiness and the chattering came back. I kept at it for about 35 minutes and learned a few things:

    1. The short back and forth stroke method works much better than full stone-length strokes

    2. Pre-soaking the stone, and liberal amounts of water during sharpening certainly helped more, I'd say I got maybe a 30% improvement

    3. I have a technique problem. I focused on flattening only the first inch or so, but I wasn't precise about it. So say I went about 7/8ths of an inch on my 1k stone, then I switch to the 5k and I go a full one inch. The only parts of the blade that get touched now are the front tip and the back around the 1 inch mark, everything in-between is sort of hollowed out from the 1k stone. So I need to work in reverse order, flattening more of the back on the course stones, and less as I work up the grits.

    4. My stone generates a huge amount of suction. I said earlier I thought I could lift the stone, and indeed I can. Is this normal?
    IMG_2038.jpg

    As I said, I spent about 35 minutes on this, and at one point took it back to the 1k to start over. Roughly how many minutes would you expect to spend with a block plane blade on a 5k stone? Everything at 1k looked great and took maybe 5 minutes or so, but I think to get a consistent scratch pattern at 5k it would take me like 45 minutes.

    I was getting the beginning of a nice mirror reflection at 5k, but it was still smeary looking. Is this too much to expect at the 5k level? This is my first set of stones, so unfortunately I have nothing else to go by. I have half a mind right now to buy a different brand 5k or 6k just to see if I'd like it better.

  11. #26
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    LOL ! I'm sorry Chris, but that picture is halerious!~ I have NEVER had anywhere close to that much stiction on ANY stone, and I have used
    quite a lot of stones, but no where near as much as David. No wonder your having a hard time. This is how it works when I do it:

    1. Flatten on 1k - I do about 1inch + a little but keep moving the blade deeper and shallower as to not create a step, this takes the longest of all stones.
    2. than a 2\3\4\5\6K to remove scratches, I don't care how uniform it is, just as long as the scratches are gone, but a good back working stone will make it uniform
    automatically if it flat to the stone. just a few minutes heren(like 1 or 2), 1\2 or 1\4 of the time of the 1k.
    3. maybe 30 seconds to 1 minute on my finest stone just tot start a polish, the rest will polish out over time.


    Always make sure to apply even pressure - screwing the blade to a flat stick of wood that is 1\8 narrower than the blade can help with even pressure but I only do that if I need to do heavy work on a coarse stone.


    Different stones work differently for flattening backs, the Sigma power stones are amazing at back work (except they tend to load), and my Chosera do quite well too. Maybe David will chime in on this, since he will know if the problem is with the Shaptons or not, even though I suspect he would have said so already if it was.
    if you can't seem to solve it, it might be worth your time to get a different 3-6K stone to use for pre polishing the back and keep the fine shaptons for everyday sharpening. I keep a certain stone around because I like how it does on backs.

    One last thing - when I started out I thought the back needed to be an "even perfectly bright polish with no scratches" - that is not true! the very fine scratches of a fine stone are just fine, and will be removed slowly over time if you hone the back on a finer stone.
    Last edited by Matthew N. Masail; 06-20-2014 at 7:22 AM.

  12. #27
    On a really hard iron I'd spend about 2 minutes with a block plane iron. On something like a stock Stanley, half of that assuming the 1k and 5k were flat to each other.

  13. #28
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    What diamond plate are you using? maybe it's not as flat as you think. are the stones new? sometimes a stone has a hard top layer that dosen't work as well as the rest of the stone.

  14. #29
    What's funny is that I've seen pictures (and I can't remember where) of japanese sharpeners using natural stones and getting an iron to stick to their stone surface so that they could pick up the stone. They're pleased with it because it shows that they've honed a very flat bevel.

    I could've created the situation you've shown with the shapton 5k and 15k when I was using them, but you don't want to for obvious reasons. Gluing the stones to a base of some sort is a help because of weight, the same way using a 300 pound bench is easier than using one 150 pounds. You don't often need 300 pounds in a bench, but it makes it easier to use in the times you do.

    It sounds repetitive, but keep working with the stone. Keep it lapped, keep the strokes short and learn to move the slurry and water around and you'll be rewarded with a really fast cutting stone that makes very sharp edges.

  15. #30
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    Lol Matthew, I did have fun taking that picture, it took a few tries.

    My diamond plate is a DMT DuoSharp, 220/320.

    I haven't been testing the plate or stones for flat with a ruler and a feeler gauge, I will try that next time. Previously I've just used the pencil mark method to ensure a clean surface.

    I've had the stones for a while, but they've seen little use. I've used them to flatten and hone 5 plane irons and 5 chisels.

    I'll recharge my batteries and give it another go this weekend. Clearly if you guys are just spending minutes on each stone, then I have a technique problem. I've already identified one issue about creating a step in the back, so I can work on that. I think the second problem I have is knowing when to stop on the 5k. The 1k leaves a nice even matte finish with clear scratch pattern. The 5k starts to give me a clear reflection, but only around the perimeter, that's why i spent so much more time, trying to get that clear reflection in the center of the iron as well. That's when I realized I was creating a step and probably only hitting the front and back of the iron, and I called it quits.

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