Help: Concrete front steps - pouring

[John Coloccia]

My front steps have deteriorated and they need to be replaced. Quotes are coming in about $1600. They're deteriorating after a rough winter and I might actually be able to get most of it out with just a sledge hammer, but I could always just rent a jackhammer and get them out like that. Then I'd like to pour new ones. I've never done a larger pour before. I haven't accurately measured but the steps are probably a little more than 1/2 yard of concrete....just guestimating, maybe .7 yards or something like that. Let's just call it a yard for sake of argument.

I think the largest sized mixer I can rent is about 9 cubic feet, so I'd need to mix at least 2 loads to get enough concrete. Can I mix, pour, mix, pour, or do I have to mix and pour in one shot? If I need to do it in one shot and have it delivered, is it economical to have less than a yard delivered? There's no truck access so they'll either have to run a trough or we'll be wheelbarrowing and shoveling a lot of concrete.

Any help is most appreciated.

[Jamie Buxton]

I've broken up concrete steps once with a sledgehammer. Even when I was young and strong, that was a mistake. Today I'd rent an electric demolition hammer. Power tools are good.

You only need the outer few inches of the new steps to be new concrete. So save the rubble from the old steps to put back inside the new steps. You'll buy and place less concrete, and save on the disposal effort.

[Bob Vavricka]

Mix and pour, Mix and pour. Work the two batches a little into each other after you pour. The mixing process isn't that slow and you will be fine. It's how then did it before Redi-mix.

[Shawn Pixley]

I've broken concrete with a sledge hammer and with a jackhammer. If the surface below the concrete is at all spongy, use the jackhammer.

For the pour in two stages, I'd be worried about a cold joint between the two pours. To avoid this you want to get the second pour in as quickly as possible. Have you got your rebar planned out?

[Judson Green]

A lot of folks are using fiber mesh these days. You toss em in when your mixing. If you trowel too much you can work em up to the surface. I'd do a broom surface on the landing and steps, it'll give a little texture/grip and the mesh won't be as noticeable. After a year, maybe less, the mesh that is poking out of the surface will bit broken off.

John, have you got a picture of your current steps? And have you done any concrete work?



Screenshot_2014-06-21-09-32-28.jpg

[Mike Lassiter]

If the surface is crumbing and deteriorated maybe all you need to do is break away what is crumbing and get some high strength patching mix in a bag and trowel that back for the finished surface without doing a total demolition. Surface fractures let water in that freezes and breaks the concrete apart. It doesn't mean the damage is all the way through the concrete. Possibly just the top surface layer, which you can repair much easier and cheaper than completely rebuilding the steps.

[steven c newman]

A few ideas I have learned over the years

HATE cold joints, they will fail

Knock ALL the bad/losse, adn otherwise "have-to -go" stuff away, cleanit as good as you can.

Drill a few holes into what is left. Add a tapcon into each hole. Do NOT drive them all the way down, leave them proud at least half to the top of the new surface. Get a roll of form wire, and tie a grid using the tapcons.

On the old, clean, and BARE surfaces, add a latex adhesive. We used to call it "milk" because it looked like it. Brush it on all the old concrete. Ok, if you get it on the wire.

Use just the Mag trowel. Steps and "slick finish" do NOT mix well.

You do want a bit of fall in the steps. Sloped towards the REAR of the step, and add an edger track back there. It acts as a channel to direct rain water OFF the steps. Besides, as the steps wear, they will become level, and still safe.

Plus one to reuse of the rubble, IF there is a side wall to the steps. One can even add a railing to the side walls, rather than the steps.

New step pour? REBAR is your friend. The area where two steps meet is going to be very thin, and will be the weal link. There is where the #3 or #4 bars will do the most good. Three bars running from the top to the bottom, with a cross bar under the step itself. Concrete foundation back behind the steps? Dowel those bars into the foundation. Keeps the step from getting away from the porch that way.

Two pours? Have a hose handy, keep the first pour wet while you pour the next. Better yet, have someone else mixing the second batch While you place the first. Use a trowel to make a few grooves where the two pours meet.

About all i can think of right now, other than I am too old to be messing with concrete....

[Mark Bolton]

For me your option of tearing out and replacing is the smartest. There is never a patch it thin pour that will last as a repair. Concrete simply doesn't work like that.

We just recently replaced about 50+' of 4' sidewalk that would've been perhaps 250' from the closest location for a truck if not further. Even though it was 2 yards we had no choice other than to use bagged. While it sucked it wasn't all that bad. The worst part about bagged is your at about 250/yard or more for concrete that will be weaker and of less quality than what you'll get off a truck but sometimes you have no choice.

I have a mixer that will run 5-6 80 lb bags per batch. The key is to have a system. Pails of water with a sharpie mark inside so your not waiting on a hose, just have half dozen buckets, each is a batch, dump 2/3 of the pail in the mixer, slowly add most of your material then add the final water. It's the only way to keep your batches at a fairly consistent slump across the entire pour.

I can't stand fiber in concrete and would much rather opt for mesh. You can buy a couple sheets and bend it into your forms and it will add far more strength that fiber.

The key will be the forms and the timing .. normally with stairs you form, place, then at the appropriate time you begin to break down your forms and rub out the final finish. That's the trick.

You may also be able to save yourself some work by filling the large voids with rubble or cinder block. There is no need for the stairs to be completely solid concrete. You can pour a base, drop in rubble/block as you go, and just leave 4" or so around the perimeter to be solid.

I agree fully that cold joints are a complete no no but with that little concrete you shouldn't have any.

2/3 of a cubic foot per bag, and you'd be wise to use the 5000 lb quick rete cause it has a bit more Portland and it's easier to rub out if it gets away from you.

[Mel Fulks]

If your stair pitch is the too common 8-9,if you have the room consider a lower pitch like 61/2 -10 . Less demo and much
more comfortable.

[John Coloccia]

re: rebar
I actually wasn't planning on any. It's more of a stoop than steps. Imagine a solid block of concrete about 6'X3'X2', and then put another step on the front. I don't want to patch it. It actually used to be 3 steps. The first step went several years back. I took that out with an air hammer, chisels and a sledge hammer, and replaced it with a nice, flat stone (no shortage of stones on my property!). I knew the second step would eventually go. There is NO good concrete left there. I just rub my foot on it and it crumbles away.
The main part of the stoop has some spalling, but really not bad. I could save that if there was some way to just do something about the second step. I've considered just hammering that out too and replacing it with another step made of stone. It would look pretty, anyhow.

I'll post pictures later. I'm just trying to get the house ready to sell. I know I could do some sort of patch and make it look nice, but you can tell from looking that this was a bad mix from day one, and I don't want to give the new owner my headache.

One other options is sealing is, and then sticking some sort of landscape stone/brick to it. I think that would be a fairly expensive and time consuming option, though, considering that I can probably demo and pour for $300.

[Mark Bolton]

Sounds like you have a solid plan...

[John Coloccia]

Here's another question...what's the proper way to do the joint between the stoop and my foundation. Should I butt right up against the foundation or should I somehow leave a bit of room and then seal it with something? The engineer in me says that I want to do SOMETHING there to direct water away so it doesn't just collect.

[Mark Bolton]

Best practice would be to either put expansion in there or at the least roll up some felt a few layers thick and pour against that. When your done you can cut it back slightly and run a bed of NP1 in there..

[John Coloccia]

Felt sounds about my speed

Thanks for the help everyone. I'll try to get some pictures up tonight. It's ugly...

[Sean Troy]

What about pre cast?