What constitutes the "BEST" gouge?

[John Keeton]

As an introduction to this thread, it is NOT the intent to start any sort of "WHO makes the best tool!"

In fact, this thread is an effort to thwart that type of post, by relating why various factors might suit the individual needs of a particular turner vs. why they may not for another turner.

The fact is, there are many fine tools being made, and for a variety of reasons one or more may or may not suit your turning needs. I thought it might be interesting to explore what those reasons might be.

I would encourage you to add comments from your personal experiences that contribute information that might be beneficial to viewers.

It might also be helpful if you state which tools work best for you, BUT including WHY is most important. That type of information is helpful to folks that are seeking information - perhaps beginners trying to figure out which tool to buy, and even to experienced turners that are just beginning to consider other tools.

What will NOT be helpful is a blanket statement that a particular manufacturer makes the best tools available. That is simply not a true statement, for the reasons discussed, and is NOT helpful.

There are many factors to consider - flute design, machining, etc., and one often discussed is the metal used. To start out the discussion, I will post some general comments on metal qualities extracted from the CPM site - http://www.crucible.com/eselector/ge...eraltitle.html These qualities help define WHY a particular gouge might be more suited to your style of turning.

"Toughness
* Ability to resist chipping or breakage. Several factors influence toughness, including : amount of carbon in solution, the hardness the steel is heat treated to, the carbide size and volume, and the other alloy in solution. Carbide size and volume are probably the greatest controlling factors for toughness. High amounts of chromium weaken grain boundaries, although for stainless steels carbide size and volume are the limiting factor. Nickel and silicon in moderate amounts increase toughness without affecting strength.

Wear Resistance

* The ability to resist abrasive wear. Highly important property for slicing type cutting, especially when slicing abrasive materials like rope and cardboard, but less important in general when it comes to slicing soft, less abrasive materials, in which case edge stability, strength, and toughness are more important for holding an acute, polished edge. For the slicing cuts, if the edge is relatively thick wear resistance is more beneficial. Generally greater wear resistance means the steel is more difficult to sharpen, so even if a knife can benefit from a steel of greater wear resistance, less wear resistance may be preferred for easier resharpening."

Speed, aggressiveness and the type of wood turned are all important. If the wood has a lot of silica content, then those particles will tend to abrade the edge of the tool with minute fractures, leaving a microscopically rough edge. Rock inclusions in a piece of root will do a number on a hard, more brittle tool, but might not damage as much the edge of a tougher tool. Tool tip mileage is also important when it comes to wear. In turning a typical bowl, someone like Reed Gray who can/will take off a ½" thick layer of wood with each pass will put far less mileage on the cutting area of his gouge, than will someone like me that tends to be far less aggressive.

The following table on the CPM site is helpful, as well.

	Heat Treatment Temp	HRC	Wear Resistance Adhesive	Impact Toughness Ft/lbs
CPM 15V	2150°F (1175°C)	64	124	8
CPM 15V	2050°F (1120°C)	61	-	9
CPM 15V	2050°F (1120°C)	58	-	13
CPM 10V	2150°F (1175°C)	63	90	14
CPM M4	2120°F (1160°C)	63	31	31.5
D2	1850°F (1010°C)	60	4	17
D7	1900°F (1040°C)	61	7	6

This is an excerpt from one of the data sheets on the CPM site –

CPM DATA CHART.jpg


D-Way uses M42 Cobalt steel and Dave states he heat treats to R67-68. The following typical alloy content was found at http://www.westyorkssteel.com/tool-s...eed-steel/m42/

Carbon	1.05%	Silicon	0.35%
Tungsten	1.50%	Chromium	3.75%
Vanadium	1.15%	Molybdenum	9.50%
Cobalt	8.00%

And, from http://www.hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data/steelM4, the following:



Regarding any type of "proprietary" metal used by a manufacturer, it would be helpful if the manufacturer had publicly provided similar information, even if they did not choose to disclose the alloy content of the metal. That would alleviate guesswork about the metal characteristics of the tool and diminish possible skepticism about the claims of the manufacturer.

Sooooo.....what characteristics do you desire in a gouge and why? Or, what additional information would you think helpful to others considering a new tool purchase?

[John Keeton]

Some folks responded to Roger's thread on the Serious gouge review with general information on gouge qualities. I was not able to move those posts, so I would encourage you to repost that info here.

Thanks.

[Dale Miner]

John, it takes a brave man to stick a bowl gouge into a hornets nest.

Seriously though, regarding the steel itself, abrasion resistance is high on my list of desirable qualities. I seldom chip a cutting edge from turning, and that probably has a lot to do with the bevel angles used and material turned.

I see from your posting that 15V has an abrasion resistance rating about 30% higher than 10V. I have never had a 15V tool so can't compare it first hand to a 10V regarding how well it holds an edge. I also see that 15V has quite a bit less impact toughness. Since edge chipping is not an issue for me, I might be willing to try a 15V someday even though the cost is substantially higher than 10V.

The gist of your post concerns the qualities of the metal, so I will leave flute shape for another thread.

[John Keeton]

The gist of your post concerns the qualities of the metal, so I will leave flute shape for another thread.

Dale, feel free to comment on flute profile or any other consideration you think might be helpful to folks considering a gouge. My hope is that this thread will explore the various considerations and attributes, while remaining informative.

[J.D.Redwine]

Del Stubbs used a water pipe.

[Reed Gray]

Hmm, lots of food for thought... I guess second point would be what profile do you like on your gouge noses. I don't think hardly any one likes the really deep V flute design. Doug Thompson's V is almost a U, and his U is almost a C, or half circle. Turning style probably determines a lot of it. For turning style, there is: 1) do you turn on a long bed lathe, or a short bed/sliding/pivoting headstock, and 2) do you turn with dropped handle, or level handle. For me, I never use swept back grinds any more. I do all my roughing and shear scraping with scrapers. BOB tools (bottom of bowl) are just about as varied, from the fluteless gouges to standard gouges with almost no sweep, to a spindle/detail gouge with almost no sweep, which I think was Dave Hautt's 'bowl skew'.

I tend to like more open flute designs because I roll the gouges over to 45 to 90 degrees, and hold them mostly level. So, the more rounded the nose is, the higher shear angle I can get, and the larger the sweet spot is. I think a 45 degree bevel and sweep work best here. I use a push cut here.

For pull cuts, I think a more swept back design works better, and a Thompson type V flute.

If you are shear scraping with your gouge, then a swept back for sure. I was talking to Lyle about his parabolic gouge and one of his comments about it is that the more open flute design makes it so you can see better when you are shear scraping, and a more close flute design, you have to roll it over until you can't see any more. That is why I prefer scrapers.

I may be rambling here a bit. Headed off tomorrow morning for a 5 day fishing expedition in remote NW Ontario Canada. Fresh walleye every day...... Catch and release, and barbless hooks.... No phone, no computer, lots of loons, including my dad, some brothers, and others....

robo hippy

[David DeCristoforo]

I think if I have to see one more of these "which one is the best gouge" threads, I'm just going have to shoot myself...

[Sid Matheny]

I think I uses different grinds and shapes for the need at hand so can't pick which one I really like best. As for the material they are made of, well I'm cheap and don't mind sharpening since I'm not a production turner so use cheaper gouges than most of the turners here. Great subject matter for this thread anyway.


Sid

[John Beaver]

Here's my take.

1st the tool needs to be sharp. I don't care what type of tool it is, if it isn't sharp it doesn't work well. That's true for scrapers, gouges and carbide tools.

For me, the next thing is flute shape, or cutter shape. We all cut differently, and have different needs, and you have to find the flute that works best for you. There is a certain "v" shaped gouge that is very popular on this forum that just doesn't serve my purposes. There are also some very expensive gouges that don't work particularly well for me.

Next, for me, it has to cut the wood - unless it's a scraper or hollowing tool, in which case the burr needs to scrape the wood. I'm just not a big fan of carbide tips and the way they scrape and grab.

I personally don't really worry that much about the metal. Yes, some hold an edge longer then others, but sometimes those are harder to sharpen, so if the flute is correct and I can grind it the way I like, I'm not over concerned about the metal type. Within the range of decent HSS I can make them all work fine.

[John Keeton]

I think if I have to see one more of these "which one is the best gouge" threads, I'm just going have to shoot myself...

David, you missed the point! It isn't about "which" is the best gouge. It is "what MAKES it the best gouge" for you and your style of turning. Which metal, which grind, which flute, etc.

Care to contribute? Input from accomplished turners like you would be helpful to others.

[Alan Trout]

Very simply put it is the tool you use to your full potential and get the best results. The best will vary with each individual. For me I prefer a V bowl gouge with a wing. Any where from a 45 to 60 degre nose. Other than that I am not to picky. I really like Doug's tools for the value they represent.

[Thom Sturgill]

As to flute shape - I rarely use my U gouge and tend to prefer parabolic though I also use Doug's 'Jimmy Clewes' line which is a TIGHTER V than his normal, but I do a lot of pull cuts. The Clewes' V does tend to clog more than others. As said before, I think a polished flute could be very important as a ridge in the flute translate to a wave in the edge and possibly a ridge in the work. To me the 'proper' flute shape and side grind depend entirely on what cut you are doing and that depends on the wood being cut, whether it is dry or green, and the shape being created.

As to metal, I think sharpening plays a big part here. If Cindy Drozda is correct, the AO wheel can not cut the Vanadium carbides formed in the V-type steels and simple breaks them out of the matrix, negating the sharpness and wear resistance. Before getting a CBN wheel, I got better results from M2 than V10 because it started so much sharper. Now, with a CBN wheel, I rarely pick up an M2 or M4 steel tool in preference for the M42 and V10 steels. This of course depends on several other factors which might have me pick up the Ellsworth for the flute shape and size or because I am too involved in the work to walk over and touch up the edge on my other gouges and it happens to be sharp and at hand.

I still use my M2 Sorby spindle gouges, though that is a different discussion perhaps.

[Roger Chandler]

I turn bowls, boxes, hollowforms, spindlework..... like peppermills, occasionally, and other type spindle work as a request comes in or inspiration hits me. I am similar to Alan Trout in that I use a "V" shaped flute the most ........with the nose ground to about 47 degrees and for a bottom feeder about 60 degrees. The V shaped flute I prefer is a modified V like on the Serious gouge I did the review on and on my Thompson.........talking to Doug personally on the last one I ordered he recommended to me the 'Jimmy Clews" signature model because he said the flute most resembled what was at the time I got it, my old Sorby.

I have a 3/4" U shaped Thompson gouge for hogging out when roughing...........but I find most of the time even for roughing out, I like the 5/8" V flute from Doug or the Serious Ultimate for that as well.........The 3/4" just seems to be overkill for most of what I turn........on difficult woods like hickory or pecan that has become hard, that 3/4" size will really help take the beating those wood try to throw at you!

For my skew gouges.......they are just plain HHS that came with my original set except for the big Alan Lacer skew I got..........I hardly ever use it, but find it comes in handy every so often if I want to do a planing cut such as on a rolling pin.

My scrapers at present are HHS.............I want to get one from Serious in time, when I wear the ones I have down a good bit........but it will take some time and a good number of projects before that happens.........I grind the edges of my scrapers on my 60 grit Norton 3x wheel.......it seems that they do a pretty good job with that grind and changing the platform to the gouge side of my wolverine setup does not seem to be needed for scrapers to put an edge on them with my CBN 180 grit........although I have done it a few times, the cut does not seem better with the CBN grind on the scraper.

Now that I have the Serious Ultimate gouges, the modified V flute is pretty much like the Thompson and Sorby.........and ejects shavings pretty well and allows me to have the wings as well. I do not grind my wings as far back as the Ellsworth gouges I have seen, perhaps known also as the "Irish" grind...........although mine are swept back some. The reason for this is I do shear cuts and scrapes on my bowls and hollowforms. The shear cuts allow for me to get a great surface from which to start the sanding process, and the shear scrapes allow me to refine the form to remove any small high spots or to blend cuts together so that it looks seamless.

As to metals..........I do not claim any knowledge beyond what is commonly known to most experienced turners. I will say that I really like the longevity of the cutting edge from the 10V metals and whatever the alloy compound on the Serious Ultimate gouge is...........I have had no issue with brittleness or "toughness" with the new Ultimate gouges.........they are harder than other gouges I have, but sharpening has not been a problem at all.........a simple touch up once you establish your grind is all it takes.........with the CBN wheel it gives a fine edge with a lasting sharpness compared to my HHS Sorby.

I don't mind sharpening, but I like for my grind to last as long as it can without needed to stop and sharpen.........I do however usually stop and sharpen for my last pass or two.........just leaves a better surface and I turn up the speed a bit if possible also.......you get the best surface that way!

[robert baccus]

The "best" gouge is the next one I can con myself into Buying. I was this way when buying Bass plugs.

[Dale Miner]

Del Stubbs used a water pipe.

I started out woodturning by turning forms to spin metal on. With no wood turning experience at all, frustration and catches were the norm. My son brought me a Del Stubbs dvd and the light bulb went on. Del talked about and turned a bit with his first gouge made from a pipe.

Out to the shop, the edge of a 4 1/2" grinder, a piece of 4340, and a quench in oil later, and there was a 11/16" diameter more or less U flute bowl gouge needing a handle. That was my first bowl gouge. The flute was about 2" long, and went through several nose profiles from convetional to a long swept back. There may have been a catch or two along the way. I learned to turn with that U flute, and as a result prefer a U flute with a fingernail grind. But, when asked by a newbie as to what style flute they should buy, the answer is a fingernail V flute with a generous radius in the bottom. Reason being, a V flute is easier to learn on. A V flute with a generous radius runs a close second on my preference list.

I find a U flute gives a cleaner cut, especially on the inside of a bowl, but is very unforgiving for presentation errors. I don't care at all for a V flute that has a tight radius. They clog to easy and seem to me to leave more torn fibers. I don't do much shear scraping on the outside of vessels with a gouge, but find the edge profile of a swept back V flute or especially a parabolic flute works better than a fingernail grind of a U flute. For slight form corrections on the outside of vessels, a handle down bevel rubbing shear cut is my preferred cut, although it can sometimes cause 'lift out' (as opposed to tear out).