Questions about choosing a jointer-planer combination

[rudy de haas]

hi:

I have three questions I'd much appreciate getting answers to - but first, some background.

I live in Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada. I'm a retired management consultant (IT/Business strategies), not a woodworker. I'm learning how to do basic wood stuff because our house needs lots of work, I have more time than cash, and it's fun.

Several weeks ago I decided my next project would justify buying a jointer and planer purely on lumber savings. I started out thinking I needed benchtop tools because I have limited space, but quickly learned these would not be adequate and started looking at larger machines.

After I did, I concluded that:

1- Among 10" combined jointer-planers the Hammer A3-260 seems to stand out for quality but there are none now available in Canada and they're quite expensive. The last record I can find of a used one being sold in Canada is from January of this year, and I found none currently on offer. The 12" models seem to trade regularly, but they're absurd overkill for a guy who really wants an 8" combined jointer-planer with about a 60" bed.

2 - The Rikon 10" (model 25-010) is available (new, $1,099 cdn ) in Calgary (2 hours away) but appears to be at the low end in the category.

3 - The Grizzly G0675 looks like a pretty good choice - I'm guessing that it is much better than the Rikon but not as good as the Hammer. It's $1,150 USD plus $149 USD shipping plus whatever UPS demands on delivery, but when I tried to order it, we went through several iterations on their policy on UPS brokerage and related charges (basically: their way or the highway) before finding out that it's out of stock until the week of July 23rd. At a guess, that means mid to late August delivery - and, of course, I want it yesterday.

And that leaves me with some questions I'm hoping the people here can help me with:

1 - What's really better? Wait, pay UPS whatever they demand, and get the grizzly? Get a used 8" jointer (both General and Powermatic come up a lot) and a new DeWalt 735? Get the Rikon on the grounds that I can have it tomorrow and it's more machine than I know how to use anyway?

2 - Grizzly flat out refuses to accept responsibility for UPS fees other than freight - although their customer service rep, who at first kept trying to explain their policy (their way, or Rikon?), eventually agreed that they would take up any overages with UPS - but then followed up with an email saying they would not.

Am I the only Canadian customer who's unhappy about having to pay UPS whatever they ask for on delivery?

(Note that this problem, to the extent it is one, should be trivial for Grizzly to fix - I offered to show them how, but hit a wall.)

3 - Grizzly has been around for something like 30 years and they look pretty good on web review - but there's no real used market. Craigslist in the US and kijiji in Canada carry offers on hundreds of machines from Sears, from Rockwell/Delta, from General, Laguna, -even Foley-Belsaw - but almost no Grizzly products. Anyone have any idea why not? Are these things heirlooms? too easily broken to resell? or is there an active used market I haven't found?

[Evan Patton]

Rudy,
You might want to consider some of the other Asian imports. Many are manufactured in the same factory with different quality/features/paint. I took advantage of a 15% off and free shipping sale on a Jet 12" Jointer/Planer with helical knives and am quite happy with it. I chose the Jet because it had the easiest and fastest switch over between jointing and planing. I definitely recommend the carbide helical knives--they're quieter, make less dust, and are easier to change. As for a 12" j/p being too big I don't think you'll mind it at all once you've gotten over the price and and used it a bit.

Here's a nice comparison of imports including the Grizzly and Rikon:
http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-...-machines.aspx

The used Belsaw is an interesting choice for your application. I don't think they made a jointer/planer, but as I recall their planer could also be used to cut molding--something that could be pretty useful for you.

You will definitely want a dust collector--these things generate lots of wood chips!

Good luck,
Evan

[Jim Becker]

The issue with shipping into Canada isn't new nor is it limited to certain vendors...that cross-border thing adds substantial cost. (This is one reason that Lee Valley, based in Canada, has a US facility in New York state so they can mitigate the cross border costs on individual sales into the US, for example)

For that reason alone, it may be more cost effective for you to pick a product that is available from a reseller/vendor located in Canada. I don't say this in any way to put a poor light on the US vendor you're considering, but the realities of doing business are what they are and margins are thin. It's hard to ask a vendor to absorb the significant extra cross border costs themselves...and that particular vendor didn't even offer to sell into Canada until recently, likely because of those costs. And that's why you are not seeing Grizzly used up there...unless someone took it across the border themselves after buying in the US, it didn't get there.

[John TenEyck]

If you have the space I would get a separate jointer and planer, and I would buy used ones. An 8" jointer and 15" planer is a very useful set up. I have a combo machine, and it's great where space is limited, period. Otherwise, stand alone machines are just more convenient. I would not fight with Grizzly or anyone else over shipping. I'd buy used machines locally, spend less, and have more. Any of the old machines would be on my watch list.

John

[rudy de haas]

Oops - this was a reply to Jim Becker, above.

Thanks! however...

1 - I'm not seeing Grizzly used in the US either.

2 - I'm not asking grizzly to pay brokerage and tax costs. Only not to force me to pay whatever undocumented and unsupported demand UPS comes up with
at the door. I've ordered books from Amazon and found UPS demanding amounts ranging from nothing to about $55 on delivery. With Amazon I just refuse to accept the shipment and then get them to go after UPS - because my complaining to UPS after paying them is about as useful as, you know, things on bulls. IIt's easy to calculate what the charge should be on the G0675 ($88.50 for brokerage and tax at today's exchange rate) impossible to confidently predict what it will be.

[rudy de haas]

hi:

Thanks - I did look at the Jet, King, and a couple of others. Rikon's 12" is, I suspect, about as good as the others and only $1,799 Cdn - no helical knives, but I'm poor... If I went 12", I think I'd wait until I found a used Hammer A3-31 - they come up fairly often and look pretty good.

And, yes, I am getting a dust system - several come up used every week and they're cheap.

[Rich Enders]

Rudy,

You say you are not a woodworker, and are only looking at lumber savings. But you are looking at relatively expensive stuff. A 12 inch bench top planer and a homemade jointer sled will get you into the game for a few hundred (US) dollars. I know from 5 years experience that this is a very functional combination, and you get whatever precision you want.

[rudy de haas]

Thanks!

I suppose that's do-able, but I'm not confident of my ability to pull it off. I did look carefully at the 6" jointer/12" planer benchtops (It's how I got interested
in Grizzly to begin with) but doing 8" stuff on a 6" jointer is either tricky or unsafe and the one I looked at carefully (Porter-Cable) just looked like it wasn't going to give good results for long. Older Delta gear looks tougher, but it's older and costs more so I'm pretty much hung up on getting bigger gear.

[John Piwaron]

I use separates - a 12.5" DeWalt "lunchbox" planer (DW733) and a 8" Delta jointer (DJ-20). That planer uses resharpenable knives. They make a model that replaces it that has throw away knives.

That combination is what I've been using for many years through a lot of projects. For the times I have to flatten something wider than the planer can do I take the work to my local lumber store and have them put it through their thickness sander for a few bucks.

Good luck!

[Rich Enders]

Rudy,

Since you have more time than money...... It is doable. I had the (US$ 250) 13" Ryobi bench top planer from Home Depot, and it did the job without complaining for 5 years. I bolted it to a piece of slightly oversize 3/4 inch plywood and then clamped the plywood to my bench. When I was done with it I gave it to Habitat for Humanity, and I have no doubt it is still out on a construction sight somewhere. Actually other than being cheap, I don't think the Ryobi gets any rave reviews, but tool tests are available to help you if you go in this direction.

I built a 12" wide jointer sled with guidance from an article in Fine Woodworking. I used their torsion box concept for the base, but simplified the supports. I guess surprisingly it works easily and gives you the full width capability of the planer. I think my cost was about $20, and 4-5 hours. It works for face jointing. For edge jointing I used a table saw and/or a router.

Good luck on your projects.

[John TenEyck]

Rudy, you aren't really all that far from Calgary. I have to believe good used machines come up for sale in Calgary and the surrounding area all the time. I live in much smaller city (near Buffalo, NY) and in today's C-list there is a 12" Crescent Jointer, and 12" MiniMax J/P, and a Rockwell RC-33 planer. Similar machines come up all the time.

Shop "local", shop used. You'll save a lot of money over buying new and avoid cross border shipping hassles.

John

[Ryan Mooney]

Agree with Rich if you're on a budget a solid used planer and a homemade sled will get you all the face jointing you need. If you aren't all that familiar with using a jointer imho the sled is actually slightly easier and certainly safer to use. Its perhaps not quite as fast, but if you batch up the work and layout the shop with infeed/outfeed support its not immensely slower either. The sled is really quite easy to make as well. The Belsaw would be nice if its in good shape because of the molding capability. I used my DW734 like that for quite a few years before upgrading to an A3-31 (my moms husband now has the 734 and gushes about how great it is - lots of new projects apparently appeared at their house ). I still have the sled although I admit I haven't used it in a couple of years..

For edge jointing as Rich noted there are a number of jigs for either the table saw or your router table that work a charm (a quick google search for "jointing table saw" or "jointing router table" gets a bunch of hits). Again a bit more setup than just zip over the jointer but not a whole lot if you do a few pieces at once.

[rudy de haas]

I agree - used has a lot going for it.

Any ideas about my third question? Why is there so little used Grizzly stuff on the market?

[rudy de haas]

umm, maybe I'm being dense - so I'm going to take your advice to heart and go try this with a friend's dewalt (it's a 734). Always nice to save some money, etc

[Ryan Mooney]

Any ideas about my third question? Why is there so little used Grizzly stuff on the market?

I suspect that there just hasn't been that much going into the canadian market historically (due to import CSA electric requirements, yadda yadda). I do see some locally around here.. but then I'm basically a short hop skip and a jump from western bear country (grizzlies western sales floor is only a few hours drive away).