Vexing Electrical Problem

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I had an electrician visit yesterday and he spent the first hour and a half doing all the things I had done and seeing all the things I had seen. He disconnected several light switches and outlets in an effort to isolate the problem to one area pretty much without any luck. After he saw that turning on nearly any light switch could trip the breaker, but didn't necessarily trip the breaker every time the switch was turned on, he did something I didn't do and never even thought about doing. He disconnected the fan and light in the bedroom, including the neutral and ground wires. I had only disconnected the hot lead. After that everything worked! Well, except the fan and light. After he left, I ohmed out the fan and the neutral and ground are shorted together somewhere inside the fan or lamp. I'm not sure I actually understand the relationship between ground and neutral in a circuit. Aren't they connected in the breaker box?

I'm still mystified about the continuity I read between the hot and ground on the circuit. I showed the electrician what I was reading on my meter and he measured it with his. He didn't have a multimeter per se, but an electrical circuit tester. While mine showed a very high impedance connection between the two, his meter kept trying to display a number, but would never settle on any digits. He said that was an open as far as he was concerned.

Anyway, it works and we bought another fan to replace the bad one.

Thanks to everyone who provided advice.

[Mike Lassiter]

Great - glad it wasn't something that required tearing into the wiring inside the walls or ceiling. Thanks for the follow up.

Also glad you didn't just change out the breaker as several advised. There was a problem as you and some of "us" suspected. Don't know if it could have caused a fire had you done that and stopped digging into this, but now you have peace of mind knowing the real problem is fixed.

[ray hampton]

Anyway, it works and we bought another fan to replace the bad one.

Thanks to everyone who provided advice.

I am glad that you got the problem solved

[Tom M King]

Glad to hear what it was, and that it wasn't in the wall. When testing with a digital voltmeter, just throw out any oddball small readings. Neutral and Ground, or Grounding and Grounded wires, are indeed "connected" to ground in the service panel, but an arc fault breaker will trip if touching anywhere else in the circuitry. I guess the current has a problem figuring out which way to go, so the AFCI says it's not good.

[Chuck Wintle]

I had an electrician visit yesterday and he spent the first hour and a half doing all the things I had done and seeing all the things I had seen. He disconnected several light switches and outlets in an effort to isolate the problem to one area pretty much without any luck. After he saw that turning on nearly any light switch could trip the breaker, but didn't necessarily trip the breaker every time the switch was turned on, he did something I didn't do and never even thought about doing. He disconnected the fan and light in the bedroom, including the neutral and ground wires. I had only disconnected the hot lead. After that everything worked! Well, except the fan and light. After he left, I ohmed out the fan and the neutral and ground are shorted together somewhere inside the fan or lamp. I'm not sure I actually understand the relationship between ground and neutral in a circuit. Aren't they connected in the breaker box?

I'm still mystified about the continuity I read between the hot and ground on the circuit. I showed the electrician what I was reading on my meter and he measured it with his. He didn't have a multimeter per se, but an electrical circuit tester. While mine showed a very high impedance connection between the two, his meter kept trying to display a number, but would never settle on any digits. He said that was an open as far as he was concerned.

Anyway, it works and we bought another fan to replace the bad one.

Thanks to everyone who provided advice.

Sometimes the pros really know all the tricks!

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I'm still mystified about the continuity I read between the hot and ground on the circuit. I showed the electrician what I was reading on my meter and he measured it with his. He didn't have a multimeter per se, but an electrical circuit tester. While mine showed a very high impedance connection between the two, his meter kept trying to display a number, but would never settle on any digits. He said that was an open as far as he was concerned.

If I connect a load such as a light bulb then the light bulb serves as a connection between hot and neutral. There is some resistance across the bulb. Neutral and ground are tied together at the breaker box.

[Phil Thien]

I had an electrician visit yesterday and he spent the first hour and a half doing all the things I had done and seeing all the things I had seen. He disconnected several light switches and outlets in an effort to isolate the problem to one area pretty much without any luck. After he saw that turning on nearly any light switch could trip the breaker, but didn't necessarily trip the breaker every time the switch was turned on, he did something I didn't do and never even thought about doing. He disconnected the fan and light in the bedroom, including the neutral and ground wires. I had only disconnected the hot lead. After that everything worked! Well, except the fan and light. After he left, I ohmed out the fan and the neutral and ground are shorted together somewhere inside the fan or lamp. I'm not sure I actually understand the relationship between ground and neutral in a circuit. Aren't they connected in the breaker box?

I'm still mystified about the continuity I read between the hot and ground on the circuit. I showed the electrician what I was reading on my meter and he measured it with his. He didn't have a multimeter per se, but an electrical circuit tester. While mine showed a very high impedance connection between the two, his meter kept trying to display a number, but would never settle on any digits. He said that was an open as far as he was concerned.

Anyway, it works and we bought another fan to replace the bad one.

Thanks to everyone who provided advice.

Wow, in light of this new information I'd say post #19 in this thread was prophetic, somebody give that guy a cigar!

How could he have possibly known that? That guy is a genius.

But I've also heard he is pretty immature.

[Chris Padilla]

Wow, in light of this new information I'd say post #19 in this thread was prophetic, somebody give that guy a cigar!

How could he have possibly known that? That guy is a genius.

But I've also heard he is pretty immature.

...and quite arrogant at times....

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Wow, in light of this new information I'd say post #19 in this thread was prophetic, somebody give that guy a cigar!

How could he have possibly known that? That guy is a genius.

But I've also heard he is pretty immature.

Indubitably, LOL

[Jeff Bouley]

Hi Dennis, bare with me, this is the first time I reply to anything on forums. The more often a breaker trips the less accurate it can become. It's possible that the breaker is now compromised, but that doesn't nessessarily explain why the breaker tripped in the first place. If I read your thread correctly, you mentioned that the circuit in question is connected to a gfci breaker. these breakers are usually used for wet locations ie: bathrooms, kithens, pool filters etc. If there aren't any of these types of loads on the circuit, it's not nessessary to have it on that circuit (Double check with your town electrical inspector, he/she has the last word on these matters). The first thing you could try is to identify all loads connected to that circuit. Once you know what is on the circuit you can disconnect the hot wire from the breaker and use a multi meter set to ohms and test the hotwire to earth ground to see if there is a short circuit (the meter will go from zero ohms to full scale deflection). If that's the case, now you can remove the loads one at a time until the short circuit opens on the meter. Once you know which load is causing the short, reconnect all other loads that was previously disconnected and reconnect the circuit to the breaker and reactivate the breaker. Unless the circuit is over loaded, the circuit should no longer trip. Depending on the type of breaker box and breakers you have, some of these can be a bit pricey to replace on a hunch. Hope this helps, Jeff Bouley

[ray hampton]

Indubitably, LOL

Dennis, your last post was July 10 th, time to report in and keep the forum well-inform

[Jason White]

Sorry, I'm late to the party. Sounds like you've got an "arc fault circuit interrupter" and not a "ground fault circuit interrupter." GFCI's are for wet areas. AFCI's are for bedrooms and such. If you don't see any evidence of arcing in any of the electrical boxes (both switches and fixtures), then the breaker is likely toast. I'd try replacing the breaker and see what happens. If the issue persists, get a real electrician in there.

Sorry for the long story, but this has been going on a few days.

The circuit breaker for our second bedroom tripped a few days ago. It's used as an office and at the time the overhead light and ceiling fan were on as well as an LED TV and a cable box. I reset the breaker and it immediately tripped again so I turned the light and fan off and unplugged everything in the room, including those devices that weren't on at the time the breaker tripped. The breaker didn't immediately trip, but as soon as I turned on the overhead light it tripped. That was an "Aha" moment and I thought I'd discovered the issue. Just to make sure I turned the light off, reset the breaker and turned the light on and...nothing. Then, I turned on the ceiling fan and it tripped the breaker again. At that point I pulled the ceiling fan and light fixture down, checked the wiring and reinstalled them. I turned everything on and the breaker didn't trip...until a couple hours later.

This time I disconnected the black leads from the two switches that control the ceiling fan and light. Then I reset the breaker and it didn't trip so I just figured I had some kind of internal wiring problem in the fan or switches and decided to pick up a fan and two light switches from the big box store on the way home from work the next day. I reconnected the switches, plugged everything back in and told Kathy not to turn the overhead light or fan on. About noon I got a call from Kathy and she says the entry foyer light is "burned out" and we don't have any extra bulbs, can I pick up one from the store when I get the fan. I tell her sure and think nothing more of it. A couple hours later she calls and tells me the hall light is also out and the circuit breaker in the second bedroom tripped again because nothing electrical in the room works. I decided to skip buying the fan and investigate some more.

The circuit labeled Bedroom 2 in the breaker box powers the outlets in the bedroom, the overhead fan and light in the bedroom as well as the hall light, the light in the foyer and a light over the breakfast area in the kitchen. All lights except the kitchen light use low wattage CFLs. The kitchen uses a 60 watt incandescent bulb.

Armed with this knowledge I disconnected the overhead light and fan switches in the bedroom again. That left the switchs, light and fan unpowered. Then I turned on the hall, foyer and kitchen lights and they ran all night and half the next day until the breaker tripped. I had Kathy reset the breaker and turn off the kitchen and foyer light. The hall light ran for a couple days and then tripped the breaker. I turned off the hall light and turned on the foyer light and its still running.

At this point I'm thinking the breaker may be the issue. One other piece of information--the breaker is a GFI breaker, but as near as I can tell, none of the outlets it powers are outside or in a wet area. I checked the outlets in the laundry and bathroom and this breaker definitely doesn't power any of them or the outlets near the front and back door.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Fixed. See post 91.