Vexing Electrical Problem

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Sorry for the long story, but this has been going on a few days.

The circuit breaker for our second bedroom tripped a few days ago. It's used as an office and at the time the overhead light and ceiling fan were on as well as an LED TV and a cable box. I reset the breaker and it immediately tripped again so I turned the light and fan off and unplugged everything in the room, including those devices that weren't on at the time the breaker tripped. The breaker didn't immediately trip, but as soon as I turned on the overhead light it tripped. That was an "Aha" moment and I thought I'd discovered the issue. Just to make sure I turned the light off, reset the breaker and turned the light on and...nothing. Then, I turned on the ceiling fan and it tripped the breaker again. At that point I pulled the ceiling fan and light fixture down, checked the wiring and reinstalled them. I turned everything on and the breaker didn't trip...until a couple hours later.

This time I disconnected the black leads from the two switches that control the ceiling fan and light. Then I reset the breaker and it didn't trip so I just figured I had some kind of internal wiring problem in the fan or switches and decided to pick up a fan and two light switches from the big box store on the way home from work the next day. I reconnected the switches, plugged everything back in and told Kathy not to turn the overhead light or fan on. About noon I got a call from Kathy and she says the entry foyer light is "burned out" and we don't have any extra bulbs, can I pick up one from the store when I get the fan. I tell her sure and think nothing more of it. A couple hours later she calls and tells me the hall light is also out and the circuit breaker in the second bedroom tripped again because nothing electrical in the room works. I decided to skip buying the fan and investigate some more.

The circuit labeled Bedroom 2 in the breaker box powers the outlets in the bedroom, the overhead fan and light in the bedroom as well as the hall light, the light in the foyer and a light over the breakfast area in the kitchen. All lights except the kitchen light use low wattage CFLs. The kitchen uses a 60 watt incandescent bulb.

Armed with this knowledge I disconnected the overhead light and fan switches in the bedroom again. That left the switchs, light and fan unpowered. Then I turned on the hall, foyer and kitchen lights and they ran all night and half the next day until the breaker tripped. I had Kathy reset the breaker and turn off the kitchen and foyer light. The hall light ran for a couple days and then tripped the breaker. I turned off the hall light and turned on the foyer light and its still running.

At this point I'm thinking the breaker may be the issue. One other piece of information--the breaker is a GFI breaker, but as near as I can tell, none of the outlets it powers are outside or in a wet area. I checked the outlets in the laundry and bathroom and this breaker definitely doesn't power any of them or the outlets near the front and back door.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I suppose that the problem could be up stream or down stream of the fan. When I had a similar problem, it turned out that one of the feeder plugs downstream had come loose. Can't tell you how much time I spent looking at the suspect plugs and hard-wired light before I found the loose wire that had been sparking in the wall.

I expected you to say that you had an Arc-Fault breaker feeding the bedroom, not a Ground Fault breaker.

[Wade Lippman]

GFCI problems can be devilishly hard to find.
So the obvious question... why is it a GFCI outlet? You really shouldn't have lights and fans on one.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I suppose that the problem could be up stream or down stream of the fan. When I had a similar problem, it turned out that one of the feeder plugs downstream had come loose. Can't tell you how much time I spent looking at the suspect plugs and hard-wired light before I found the loose wire that had been sparking in the wall.

I expected you to say that you had an Arc-Fault breaker feeding the bedroom, not a Ground Fault breaker.

I hadn't thought about checking the plugs, but I'll do that too.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

GFCI problems can be devilishly hard to find.
So the obvious question... why is it a GFCI outlet? You really shouldn't have lights and fans on one.

That is puzzling since a GFCI breaker cost so much more than a standard breaker. My first inclination would be to replace it.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

While thinking on this at my desk I realize that there is a GFCI outlet next to the AC unit which is right outside the bedroom. I would have thought that it would be on the same circuit as the outlet near the front and rear doors, but maybe it comes from the bedroom circuit. I'll have to check that out when I get home.

[Mark Bolton]

You said the room is/was a bedroom. Not sure of the age of the home but it may be an AFCI not GFCI as they are required in sleeping rooms.

You may try picking up a new breaker and swapping out your old one as it may well be the breaker itself. The price hurts but its worth a try. I have had several occasions, especially on large circuits (hot tubs mainly) where the GFCI breakers seem to get weak/fussy over time and simply will not stop tripping. Ive spoken with squareD reps about it and there is never a reasonable answer. Swap out the breaker, and the problem is fixed (because there is no fault).

[Mark Bolton]

While thinking on this at my desk I realize that there is a GFCI outlet next to the AC unit which is right outside the bedroom. I would have thought that it would be on the same circuit as the outlet near the front and rear doors, but maybe it comes from the bedroom circuit. I'll have to check that out when I get home.

There shouldnt be a GFCI outlet behind a GFCI breaker. My guess would be the outdoor outlets are on a separate circuit but who knows.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

You said the room is/was a bedroom. Not sure of the age of the home but it may be an AFCI not GFCI as they are required in sleeping rooms.

You may try picking up a new breaker and swapping out your old one as it may well be the breaker itself. The price hurts but its worth a try. I have had several occasions, especially on large circuits (hot tubs mainly) where the GFCI breakers seem to get weak/fussy over time and simply will not stop tripping. Ive spoken with squareD reps about it and there is never a reasonable answer. Swap out the breaker, and the problem is fixed (because there is no fault).

It's a little over a year old Mark. I just noticed it had a test button on the breaker and figured it was a GFCI type. I'm going to check the wiring on all the outlets too. I'll replace the breaker once I've checked the wiring on all the lights and outlets. I'm halfway there already.

[Brian Elfert]

It's a little over a year old Mark. I just noticed it had a test button on the breaker and figured it was a GFCI type. I'm going to check the wiring on all the outlets too. I'll replace the breaker once I've checked the wiring on all the lights and outlets. I'm halfway there already.

It may very well be an Arc Fault breaker then. Some electricians hate them because of false trips and the callbacks that they generate.

[Mike Wilkins]

A defective power strip in that circuit could cause this to happen. I had one of the wall circuits in my shop that kept tripping. It was not until I unplugged the power strip did I find the problem. No power strip, no circuit breaker tripping. Worth a look.

[Kevin Bourque]

I'll bet that if you changed the GFI breaker to a standard breaker your mystery would be solved.
Most GFI breakers are set up to supply a few bathroom outlets. Not lights or ceiling fans.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

A defective power strip in that circuit could cause this to happen. I had one of the wall circuits in my shop that kept tripping. It was not until I unplugged the power strip did I find the problem. No power strip, no circuit breaker tripping. Worth a look.

I don't think there is a power strip on that circuit, but I'll double check other outlets that are physically close to the room just to make sure.

[Mark Bolton]

It's a little over a year old Mark. I just noticed it had a test button on the breaker and figured it was a GFCI type. I'm going to check the wiring on all the outlets too. I'll replace the breaker once I've checked the wiring on all the lights and outlets. I'm halfway there already.

If its a year old it more than likely an AFCI. The requirement for AFCIs in sleeping rooms and in some areas nearly every room in the house started several years ago.

P.S. I wouldnt go crazy tearing things apart until you try swapping the breaker. As Brian eluded, these breakers (as any fault breaker) are known to be a real pain in the backside. I know many would simply swap the breaker out for a non-fault breaker, but I'd try a new AFCI and I'll bet your problem will go away.

[Erik Loza]

My money is on "AFCI". We had a similar issue and that was the cause. New construction, in our case.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA