Money in Woodworking?

[Calvin Williams]

Let me start by saying that I don't want to sound like a pessimist nor would I ever want to discourage anyone that is considering venturing into the woodworking business. But, I have been a "professional" woodworker (I use the term professional loosely) doing mostly cabinet work for the last 6 years and the last 3 trying to merge more into custom furniture as that is my real passion. As I do, it seems like I am working more hours than ever before and making less money. Now, I know there are some really great furniture makers out there that are probably making a good living. But, are they the ones that have been building furniture for 30+ years? Do they make their living solely off of building furniture? Most of the really well known guys seem to do a lot of teaching or even run a woodworking school. Is this simply to supplement their income or is it just for the love of woodworking? Maybe a little of both I presume. Let's be honest though, at the end of the day we still have to earn money at whatever it is we are doing. Although doing what you love is definitely a plus. Let me back up for a minute though and give a little background from where I'm coming from. I have been in building trades my whole life. It's all I have ever done since I was 13, now 35. I started doing remodeling with my shop teacher when I was a freshman in HS. After HS I got a job with a local company doing custom kitchens, baths and tile. Worked there for 3 years and decided I wanted to go out on my own. I was 21 at the time and over the last 22 years I have been in all aspects of the construction business but nothing has ever intrigued me like woodworking. From working with my shop teacher always looking forward to running some trim to working for the kitchen and bath company doing cabinet work. It's all I thought about! So, after I decided to go out on my own I basically took on any job that paid the bills from roofing to plumbing and for some odd reason I had always enjoyed roofing where I ended up getting into the roofing business full time where I was most profitable. I guess that's what intrigued me about roofing, it was so easy to make money and at that age I had never made so much money before. Even through my years roofing I still looked forward to doing custom woodworking anytime I got a chance. So, in 2007 when the economy was starting to take a dive and the new construction was coming to a halt and it seemed like the perfect time to get out of the roofing business and build a shop and start a woodworking business. Now, looking back I wonder if I should have just stayed in the roofing business and kept woodworking as a hobby. I probably would have made a lot more money in the last 6 years but I wouldn't have learned as much about woodworking as I have. It has been a great experience and I am always looking forward to building some real "masterpieces" one day. But, at what expense? Cause I surely don't want to be one of those "starving artist". I am in business to make money and doing what I love is just a plus. Still trying to find my "niche" in the woodworking business that will provide me with a decent income and not be just another "local cabinet company". My apologies if I got a little long winded but I would love to hear your thoughts ("hobbyist" or "professional") on being profitable in the woodworking business.

[Max Neu]

I am a cabinetmaker (professional),and I can tell you,building cabinets/built in's is your best way to make a living in most parts of the country.There just isn't enough demand for high end,expensive furniture to keep most guy's buisy full time.I also thought it would be cool to make a living just building masterpieces one at a time,but that dream is about the same as being a prefessional athlete,lot's of people would like to do it,only a few will make it.I have accepted the fact that I will make kitchen/bath cabinets,along with mantles,entertainment centers for a living,and I do still enjoy it,after all,I still get to be a full time woodworker.Even the cabinetmaking business can be tough,I am fortunate enough to be working with some good designers and builders in my area that keep me buisy.Without those connections,things would be even harder. Occasionaly I do get to build a piece of furniture that pay's enough to make it worth my time,so once in a while i get to enjoy the change of pace.

[Jay Jolliffe]

I'm with Max....I do cabinets, built in's, mostly what ever they want. I have made some custom furniture pieces but my living comes from cabinets..

[Albert Lee]

Well I have been making some little money in woodworking, I spent it all on upgrading my machinery and tools. I don't think there is huge money in woodworking that you can become a millionaire by making and selling your woodworks from it. I do it as part timer and I like what I made for my customer, and I like my customer come to me with new projects. it's more of accomplishment than money.

[David Eisenhauer]

It is difficult to earn a decent living off of only your own (one person's) labor - no matter what that labor is unless you are a well-known heart surgeon or one of those $600 p/hr lawyers, etc. Woodworking certainly falls the first category and typically requires that the business owner needs to employ help. The owner (of any business) makes his profit (or "living") in little pieces off of the work each of his employees performs. The bigger the company is, the smaller the piece off of each employee can be if it is in a tight industry. I read somewhere that business's in general don't usually get to the "break even" or "profitable" status until they employ 3? 4? people. The profit off of only having one or two employees gets eaten up by the cost of becoming a business with employees. It is not an easy thing, nor guaranteed that you will make a decent living, to become a business owner. I have often thought that our President's should come from the pool of experienced small-medium business owners so that they could see both sides of the equation - employee and owner side. Stop - I do not at all want to start that type of discussion, it was just an illustration of the appreciation of small business owners.

[Marc Rochkind]

To generalize, it's very hard to make good money doing anything where one is highly skilled (and therefore ought to be paid appropriately) and there are also numerous much-less-skilled people who can easily enter the field. Examples: cooking, photography, landscaping, woodworking, teaching, personal training, acting. Only where the public demands the highest skill (and can recognize it) or when demand exceeds supply can money be made. Examples: surgery, law, computer programming.

(By the way, I'm reading through all the old copies of Fine Woodworking magazine, and this topic was very much under discussion in the early 1980s.)

[Yonak Hawkins]

It is difficult to earn a decent living off of only your own (one person's) labor - no matter what that labor ... business's in general don't usually get to the "break even" or "profitable" status until they employ 3? 4? people.

I guess I got lucky and found a niche in which I can make a living in a one-man shop. I make consumer goods and have one customer.

The definition of the phrase "earn a decent living" is key. Simply being able to pay the bills and live modestly, and not lavishly, is the answer for my wife and me. Fortunately we have favorable circumstances. We don't have a house payment and we get a little bit of ancillary income. Plus, my wife has a part time job.

Bottom line for us : We have defined the lifestyle we're comfortable with and make enough to facilitate that lifestyle. We won't die rich but we get to smell the roses until that time.


After reading some of the other posts, I would like to add :

Everyone would love to make custom designed and crafted fine furniture for great profit but only the best of the best and the luckiest ever get to do that. It boils down to trade-offs. In other words, very few can make a living only doing what they love to do, but you can get close. You can make a living as a woodworker, set your own hours and work for yourself, but it just may not be making the things you want to make. I crank out items by the 100s, the same things week after week, but it's in a woodshop, my commute is only a few feet, and I've got no boss except my customer who's always hollering, "Where's my stuff?" As others have said : find a niche and exploit it.

[Judson Green]

I feel that an added difficulty is that for many of us this (woodworking) is also our passion. So sometimes doing the work that paying clients ask us to do isn't the work we want to do. And being a skilled woodworker has nothing to do with being a good business person.

Edit:

And its gotten more difficult, next to impossible, to complete (price and quality) with both the the cabinet factorys and the guy with no insurance, working on the side, out of his garage.

Not too many potential clients are sold on longevity anymore.

[Kevin Jenness]

To make a small fortune in the woodworking business, start with a large one. But seriously, folks... I agree with the points Max, David and Marc make. Unless you are extremely talented and driven you are not going to make as much money as a furnituremaker as you did as a roofer. Find a niche and be the best in it, be honest and stand behind your work, tool up to be as efficient as possible, and it will still be a struggle. Establishing a relationship with good designers (thin on the ground) can help. The future for small shops probably will include a CNC machine and web based marketing, but that doesn't guarantee success.

If you are not familiar with it already, check out Woodweb.com. It's a site for pros, with an active business forum where your fellow strivers discuss aspects of the question you raise. You may find some helpful discussion there. In particular, I have found Paul Downs' posts quite valuable. He runs a custom conference table business and blogs at the New York Times site about it, including hiring, firing,training performance reviews, profit sharing, buying insurance, finance, partnerships, marketing, sales, etc.

[Peter Quinn]

I had intentions of venturing on my own when the economy went south, maintained my employee status. Furniture quality built ins was my prospective niche, along with the occasional stand alone piece. Didn't happen. I've watched some great local "furniture makers" with excellent reputations and credentials, decades in business, struggling just like the rest of us. Most of them secretly or not so secretly make cabinets as part of their business plan. It pays the bills. Market seems to be coming back up. You need to make connections with designers, architects, contractors, project managers that are connected to wealth clients. Average income clients can't afford custom work, they go for the factory stuff to stay on budget. Some will surprise you, but you can't build a business on surprises. Custom is the realm of the rich, so you have to play in that field to have work IME. Its a good idea to remain open to different sorts of work, but avoid things that are way out of your wheel house if you aren't really prepared to handle the work. That is gambling, which can sink a solo or small shop. Takes double the time you though, fixed price bid your hurting, time and materials the client is tomato faced. How to start a custom furniture business? I have no clue. A start might be making some pieces that show your range and skill, attending one of the fancy home furniture shows like Providence or Baltimore. It will take some investment in time and money, you have to be able to live while no money comes in, almost every success I've heard of had a spouse or partner to cover the losses while they struggled, right down to Sam Maloof!

Most wealthy people have people. You don't get an audience with the client, you get to deal with their people. It can be maddening, at times you may want to give them a solid dope slap in the head...don't. Its against the law, and more importantly these relationships are important to your success. People like hiring people they like, all else being equal. Lots of guys seem able to use a chisel and table saw, doesn't require any real certification here such as a licensed trade or skilled profession like doctor, nurse, lawyer, etc. So you have to spend time nurturing and managing these relationships, while working 70hr/wk making stuff, doing the books at night, cleaning the shop on weekends, or at 11PM, sourcing materials, dealing with strange hardware, drawings from architects that don't actually work except on paper......as mentioned earlier its a lot to go it alone, seems to work better as an organization, but building that takes a set of skills aside from wood working.

Ive been observing the structure at the places I've worked, considering what makes them successful, keeps the money coming in, doors open. Each situation is unique, but in most cases the best wood workers in the shop are not running the business, and the best business people are not making the cabinets. Not sure that helps or applies to your situation, just random observations. Hope that doesn't get my post deleted? I think all else aside you have to put yourself out there, keep trying, don't give up easy. Its not the easiest way to make a living on the best of days, many small shop owners dream of just making $100K end of the year, about the starting pay of a business analyst just out of college for a medium sized corporation. So "comfortable living" has to be put in perspective. Sometimes I'd rather have a larger pay check, but I almost never want some passive aggressive weenie middle manager in a bad tie delegating ridiculous possibly meaningless responsibilities my way, have no stomach for corporate office politics. That part isn't random....I actually lived that in a former life pre wood worker. You are still young enough to make changes and have choices, you wont always be young enough to want to actually get up on a roof, thats a business better managed front the ground! I've been up on a few roofs, there is nothing like peeling a 12 pitch on a cold November morning with throbbing planter faciatus griping your feet to make you yearn for the flat warmth and comfort of a shop job!

Good luck with it which ever path you choose.

[Calvin Williams]

Thanks for all the insight guys... It's all in line with what I pretty much was thinking. Even though I make my living building cabinets and it is super repetitive and doesn't seem to be challenging enough for me. I still enjoy it more than I did roofing. Though sometimes its hard to take that pay cut just to be able to do what you love. I build quality cabinets and it's hard to compete with the guys that Judson mentioned and very few customers are willing to pay what it costs or even know the difference. He also made a very good point about the jobs we do are usually ones we don't really want to do. But, I guess that's what you do when you are in business and have to pay the bills. Lol!! So, I'll keep on working on it but I definitely think it is a topic that should be discussed more often. Thanks again!!

[Calvin Williams]

I had intentions of venturing on my own when the economy went south, maintained my employee status. Furniture quality built ins was my prospective niche, along with the occasional stand alone piece. Didn't happen. I've watched some great local "furniture makers" with excellent reputations and credentials, decades in business, struggling just like the rest of us. Most of them secretly or not so secretly make cabinets as part of their business plan. It pays the bills. Market seems to be coming back up. You need to make connections with designers, architects, contractors, project managers that are connected to wealth clients. Average income clients can't afford custom work, they go for the factory stuff to stay on budget. Some will surprise you, but you can't build a business on surprises. Custom is the realm of the rich, so you have to play in that field to have work IME. Its a good idea to remain open to different sorts of work, but avoid things that are way out of your wheel house if you aren't really prepared to handle the work. That is gambling, which can sink a solo or small shop. Takes double the time you though, fixed price bid your hurting, time and materials the client is tomato faced. How to start a custom furniture business? I have no clue. A start might be making some pieces that show your range and skill, attending one of the fancy home furniture shows like Providence or Baltimore. It will take some investment in time and money, you have to be able to live while no money comes in, almost every success I've heard of had a spouse or partner to cover the losses while they struggled, right down to Sam Maloof!

Most wealthy people have people. You don't get an audience with the client, you get to deal with their people. It can be maddening, at times you may want to give them a solid dope slap in the head...don't. Its against the law, and more importantly these relationships are important to your success. People like hiring people they like, all else being equal. Lots of guys seem able to use a chisel and table saw, doesn't require any real certification here such as a licensed trade or skilled profession like doctor, nurse, lawyer, etc. So you have to spend time nurturing and managing these relationships, while working 70hr/wk making stuff, doing the books at night, cleaning the shop on weekends, or at 11PM, sourcing materials, dealing with strange hardware, drawings from architects that don't actually work except on paper......as mentioned earlier its a lot to go it alone, seems to work better as an organization, but building that takes a set of skills aside from wood working.

Ive been observing the structure at the places I've worked, considering what makes them successful, keeps the money coming in, doors open. Each situation is unique, but in most cases the best wood workers in the shop are not running the business, and the best business people are not making the cabinets. Not sure that helps or applies to your situation, just random observations. Hope that doesn't get my post deleted? I think all else aside you have to put yourself out there, keep trying, don't give up easy. Its not the easiest way to make a living on the best of days, many small shop owners dream of just making $100K end of the year, about the starting pay of a business analyst just out of college for a medium sized corporation. So "comfortable living" has to be put in perspective. Sometimes I'd rather have a larger pay check, but I almost never want some passive aggressive weenie middle manager in a bad tie delegating ridiculous possibly meaningless responsibilities my way, have no stomach for corporate office politics. That part isn't random....I actually lived that in a former life pre wood worker. You are still young enough to make changes and have choices, you wont always be young enough to want to actually get up on a roof, thats a business better managed front the ground! I've been up on a few roofs, there is nothing like peeling a 12 pitch on a cold November morning with throbbing planter faciatus griping your feet to make you yearn for the flat warmth and comfort of a shop job!

Good luck with it which ever path you choose.

Thanks Peter for your reply. I'm "making a living" and fortunately I have a wonderful wife that has a great job. But, I don't rely on her income to support my business even though I have in the past. I guess what I am so curious about is how can someone not have a problem paying a roofing company to come out and roof their house in a day for $8-$10k but doesn't want to pay a man $1700 to build a 3'x7' island that is going to take 2 days by the time you build and spray it? This is an actual scenario that I had encountered btw. Makes absolutely no sense to me. I'll continue to make money but I try to look at things from a business prospective as much as possible and hour for hour custom work just doesn't seem to be as profitable as it should be. I'll keep on keeping on though ;-)

[Phil Thien]

Some difficulty may still be due to underlying economic factors. I don't know if you guys heard the news, but the economy shrunk at a 2.9% (annualized rate) in the first quarter of this year. It is only one quarter, and many economists are blaming weather. HOWEVER, we'd have terrible winters before and the economy didn't shrink THAT much. Some call it a free-fall, 2.9% is a substantial drop.

Ultimately, I really don't feel like the economy ever got the traction needed for a decent recovery after the "Great Recession" of 2007-09.

Custom furniture is a luxury. During boom times there would no doubt be middle-income individuals that have enough spare cash flow that they may consider it. When times are lean, I think the only hope is being very good and knowing a well-heeled crowd.

[Moses Yoder]

I don't believe there is any sense in doing what you love. I think the wisest path is to love what you do.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Develop proprietary designs and skills. This makes lateral price/value comparisons impossible for clients, but if all you do is crank out plywood boxes, well, that's not proprietary work. Read "Marketing To the Aflluent" by Dan Kennedy.